it just is not Jazz and it is ignorance or deception to make such a claim

[Stephen Whitaker]

Well I'm happy to give you tit for tat every time you come out with something along the lines of
"it is a pretence to think that such music making is Jazz of the sort played by Trish Clowes and other young British Jazz artists "
because it is patently not true and what's more I gave the evidence to prove it!

"Jazz Record Requests" was the first jazz programme on the Third Programme.
Presented by Humphrey Lyttelton, the 30-minute programme was launched in December 1964 .

Nobody discovered that it was not weird to like Charlie Parker, Jackie McLean or Ornette Coleman
on the Third Programme in 1961 or at any time before 1964.

Your attempts to define what is or is not 'real' jazz are entirely a matter of your own taste
and all claims, musical, historical, or sociological that you have advanced have been risibly ill-informed.

Your canonical attitudes apply to a church of one Ron Hubbard-like believer only.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

Jazz Record Requests was the first jazz programme on the Third Programme.
Presented by Humphrey Lyttelton, the 30-minute programme was launched in December 1964 .

Nobody discovered that it was not weird to like Charlie Parker, Jackie McLean or Ornette Coleman
on the Third Programme in 1961 or at any time before 1964.

Your attempts to define what is or is not 'real' jazz are entirely a matter of your own taste
and all claims, musical, historical, or sociological that you have advanced have been risibly ill-informed.

Your canonical attitudes apply to a church of one believer only.

thank you for looking up that date ... i am quite sure i was listening to jazz programmes on the Third before that year ... and my friends and i did so discover, since you were not there perhaps you could just leave off .... the debate is about serving jazz on r3 NOW not my memories, veridical or no ....

why is it always an ad hominem argument with such as yourself?

please note that i am neither decrying Ms Martin and her work with Mr Bennettt nor arguing that it should not be broadcast ... indeed i think it should be. on r2 where it would get a wider audience no doubt but not in the time slots we have left on r3 for jazz ... where inter alia i would like to find

rather than my memory, do you have a view on that?

[Ian Thumwood]

Ah, so there's more essential and less essential jazz. Interesting thought. Thing is, one person's essential jazz might be another's Matt Monroe.

I must admit that I would probably have to align myself with those who are not RRB fans although I would add the caveat that I do believe that he had an understanding of jazz and is probably not quite as outside the mainstream as suggested. There a many fans of Stan Getz on this board and it is worth noting that RRB wrote a saxophone concerto especially for him although I don't think Getz actually performed it. To pick up the Orwellian idea of some jazz might be more equal than others, personally I can see the connection between a player like Getz and RRB and , in my preference, they would both be aligned more to the Matt Monroe side of the equation. Neither are edgier enough for my taste and both artists are a bit too polite even if I can appreciate something like "People Time" as being great jazz. Calum's examples are valid and I would choose Ornette or Jackie Mac everytime in preference to RRB and Claire Martin as the former are two musicians whose approach is almost a dictionary definition of what I like about jazz.

The other thing that I think is worth noting is that musicians who come to jazz from Classical music always seem to be attracted by the harmony aspect of the music as opposed to the rhythmic side of the former. Perhaps this is becauase jazz harmony is so derivative of jazz. I'm not surprised RRB dug Ellis Larkin and I'm sure that players like Bill Evans or John Taylor who both have a very "European" style must have appealed equally, I would be fascinated to have discovered his thoughts on players like Ellington, Monk, Tyner or Hill who have borrowed from European music to a lesser degree but whose approach is manifestly "black" in it's identity or at least the rhythmic element is more significant. I don't think he would have appreciated a "gutsy" blues player like Leroy Carr either. My guess is that this kind of piano would not have appealed.

It's strange that jazz has constantly developed and absorbed so many influences yet the mainstream "core" always proves to be resiliant and demonstrates that is has more staying power than other styles that go our of fashion. There is a grain of truth , I feel, about some jazz being more essential than others and I feel that some efforts to compromise with other influences does rob the music of it's potency. However, the dividing lines are blurred even within the work of individual musicians. There is no Cooper-esque scale with which to judge the music setting aside the point about what is essential or note being subjective.

Here's something worth considering. Wondered if Bluesnik or Calum would consider this performance by Bill Charlap (for example) to be jazz or does it stray in to "cocktail " music? My opinion that it is jazz, by the way!! If you can make room for Hank Jones, then surely Bill Charlap has got to fit the bill. I would be interested to read both or your opinions.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

No problem with that Ian, not far removed from say, Red Garland or The Three Sounds.

Whereas, the strange affection certain Brits of a certain age and certain affluence have for a certain sort of Kings Singers (white) jazz lite...Oh, they were such fun at that Uni party....leaves me certainly uncertain.

BN.

BTW. I've heard that JRR will soon become Jazz Record Request...one record. "There just isn't the budget or the audience, Darling."

[eighthobstruction]

>>>'why is it always an ad hominem argument with such as yourself?'<<<

But Cadaja, Stephen Whitaker has proved it Empirically....<sarcasm>....'all claims, musical, historical, or sociological'....Ah well you maaaaay be ok philosophically, morally, ontologically, epistemologically....

[Ian Thumwood]

As I said, people who come to jazz from Classical music will look for different things in jazz than people who come to the music directly. It's interesting to hear what some musicians and fans consider to be the essential incredients and I have had similar discussions many years ago when I first tried to find a piano teacher to learn jazz over 20-odd years ago. Once potential teacher seemed to suggest that jazz wasn't about improvisation over chord changes and scales had nothing to do with jazz. Needless to say, I went elsewhere.

Come in Calum!! Wondered if you felt the Charlap track was "jazzy" enough?

[Stephen Whitaker]

Calum, you do not know that I was in fact there at the time, so perhaps you could just leave off assuming knowledge you don't posses
.... why is it always an ad hominem argument with such as yourself?

Far from 'ad hominem' arguments, I have provided evidence that your 'facts' are without a basis in reality.

Why you think that a liking for the ambient electronica of Boom Logistics establishes the credibility of your judgements
on the 'real' jazz that R3 should confine itself to, goodness knows.
(I see your Boom Logistics and raise you by Red Snapper.)


Have you ever been at a performance by any of the artists you have discussed?

[MrGongGong]

I was very sad when John Stevens died too soon he was a great inspiration to many of us and had a great wit
and am sure he would have something to contribute

I was also sad when RRB died but having worked with him as a student I always cringed at the "middle of the road" Jazzlite stuff he did
he was a wonderful man and a great inspiration but I find it hard to like the "American Songbook" stuff
but I guess many people do

[french frank]

Interesting that this discussion mirrors the: Is John 'Starwars' Williams' film music 'classical music'? (A. No, of course it isn't, not either in the narrow or broad sense.) What is it we hear that is the very essence of jazz/classical? Is it really just a matter of taste/prejudice?

Incidentally, JRR was the first regular jazz strand, beginning in 1964. But jazz was certainly played on the Third before that: Humphrey Carpenter reports the announcement in November 1948 that during the following January and February there would be 'six weekly half-hours of swing', with the proviso that 'our interest in jazz must be limited to the strictly musical. We are not ... interested in modern modifications of the original impulses that gave rise to the jazz style, believing this mostly to arise from what might be called commercial motives.'

And a programme of Jelly Roll Morton records, for example, was broadcast in 1952, so there were certainly opportunities to hear some jazz on the Third before 1964.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

In defence of Calum, his key and initial point was the lack of time and respect for jazz on R3 beyond the lip service funding remit.

For a psb cultural service with a budget of over £30m it's a fking outrage of which ALL involved should be deeply ashamed.

End of.

BN.

But of course, the BBC doesnt do shame, it just moves sideways...

[Stephen Whitaker]

" I find it hard to like the "American Songbook" stuff "

So go tell Archie Shepp to stop playing "Body and Soul".

[Stephen Whitaker]

Interesting that this discussion mirrors the: Is John 'Starwars' Williams' film music 'classical music'? (A. No, of course it isn't, not either in the narrow or broad sense.) What is it we hear that is the very essence of jazz/classical? Is it really just a matter of taste/prejudice?

Incidentally, JRR was the first regular jazz strand, beginning in 1964. But jazz was certainly played on the Third before that: Humphrey Carpenter reports the announcement in November 1948 that during the following January and February there would be 'six weekly half-hours of swing', with the proviso that 'our interest in jazz must be limited to the strictly musical. We are not ... interested in modern modifications of the original impulses that gave rise to the jazz style, believing this mostly to arise from what might be called commercial motives.'

And a programme of Jelly Roll Morton records, for example, was broadcast in 1952, so there were certainly opportunities to hear some jazz on the Third before 1964.

You go find evidence of Ornette appearing on the Third and I have a hat here that will roast nicely.

[MrGongGong]

" I find it hard to like the "American Songbook" stuff "

So go tell Archie Shepp to stop playing "Body and Soul".

I think there's a huge difference between playing and singing
but I find most "Jazz singing" hard to like

(though Maggie Nichols is wonderful ..........)

[Ian Thumwood]

I think there's a huge difference between playing and singing

This is the kind of comment that I find hard to take seriously and which substantiates my perspective that the criticism of singers is really ill-judged and shows the lack of recognition of singers as genuine musicians. There seems to be a genuine mistrust that singers are actually performing jazz - even from an admirer of Maggie Nichols who too often does perform outside this ouevre to my understanding. I would suggest that Nichols is equally not jazz or has a loose relationship with it to the same degree as someone like RRB albeit for different reasons. The likes of Dianne Reeves, Cassandra Wilson, kurt Elling, Betty Carter or Sheila Jordan have a relationship with jazz that is absolute.

I can appreciate the ambivalence towards the American Songbook stuff as a lot of the material is now pretty hackneyed and even advocates of RRB / Claire Martin would struggle that they have brought anything new to this material. However, it is a core part of the repertoire and the likes of Keith Jarrett and Paul Motian have demonstrated over the last 20-odd years that it still has potential. I don't doubt RRB's ability as a good pianist nor his skill with the pen when it comes to writing (which was borne out by the Bill Charlap track I posted previously which was actually arranged by RRB - something that my surprise Bluesnik) but I would doubt is he has added to this oeuvre quite so much as Jarrett or Motian. If I can throw another name in to the mix, I would suggest that RBB's relationship with jazz is pretty much akin to someone like Michel Legrand.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

when i said you were not there Mr Whittaker you most certainly were not with my friends and myself ....is all i meant ....

one last time cabaret lounge music is not Jazz, certainly not in the sense that it merits time in r3 Jazz programmes ... that is my view


i have made my view clear ... i have no wish to debate this further ... it is a topic much chewed on the old message boards, as with this thread because r3 was letting the serious jazz audience down