Swing

[Quarky]

Would some kind Jazzbo(s) kindly explain to me what they understand by this "term of the art"?

I have my own ideas, but would like to see an expert view before going into print.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

er i find that Gunther Schuller does it for me

ostensively it has to be Ellington's Webster Blanton outfit and his contemporary Count Basie's Lester Young band ...

and the style of playing that their sidemen took to smaller ensembles etc ...

i am sure our fellow boredee Ian T will have some interesting points and suggestions ....


that is taking the expression as an historical entity

if you want a stylistic concept then all i can add is that it is what Messrs Basie Green Page and Jones unfailingly did ....

[Serial_Apologist]

For Swing, capital "S", I accept Berendt's definition of the big band music of the second half of the '30s/first half of the '40s.

But I surmise Odball's question relates to the ability of jazz improvisers to land their tones either a fraction before, or after, the beat. It is the subtlest thing, nothing to do with syncopation, which makes of jazz a sensuous music. Without it, we'd be having military marches. Sometimes one can hear jazz musicians play foresquarely on the beat, then escaping entirely and prodding between - Monk being a particular exemplification - always creating for me the impression of sending up classical playing disciplines!

An interesting survey of classical pianists once discovered that they, too, are naturally given to pre-empting or delaying their note placements around the beat. It's rarely commented on, but could, just maybe could, be the rationale behind MJQ pianist John Lewis's observation, that, "He can really swing, your Bach!" Which could also account for my tendency to sway my way through classical performances - much to other audience members' annoyance!

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Paul Chambers et Philly Joe Jones...

Nuff said.

If you have to ask, etc.....

BN.

[Quarky]

Thanks for interesting explanations.

Yes if anyone can explain it, it must be Gunther Schuller. However I found the more words, diagrams and frequency images he used, the more confusing it became.

I accept his definition in the Glossary: ....a manner of playing (inflecting) rhythms...., inflecting meaning bent or curved.

Yes the Basie rhythm section is a great example. The listener is held hypnotically to the sound - although apparently regular, there is some magic ingredient there which holds the listener's attention - little subtle surprising unexpected "goings on".

The word swing literally means some sort of chariot or seat which swings or rotates periodically, with the occupant being swung around, with the motive force being provided by some external force:



That's the way I feel about Jazz swing - the musicians are doing subtle things to the rhythm, perhaps only partly sensed by the listener, but nevertheless grip him firmly by the seat of the pants.

Tend to think in analogies, and the best analogy I can think of is the movement of a great dancer or athlete. For example the Russian duo in the 2012 Olympics, who won the gold medal. They just walked into the swimming pool with such grace and effortless movemnt, that I just gawped - took my breath away - far beyond the capability of an ordinary mortal.



But as regards Dave Brubeck, which prompted my question, aren't we being a little hard on him?

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

I'm not sure there is one...swing. No ideal type.

Mingus's bands, Ornette on Atlantic, Miles' quintets all "swang" like hell in their own individual ways. And not perhaps in the sense or feel of Basie.

Its often contextual. You know it when you hear it?


BN.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I thought "swing" was writing 12/8 music as 4/4.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

I thought "swing" was writing 12/8 music as 4/4.

...ahem, not quite

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

... the Modern Jazz Quartet epitomise a style of swing that i find irresistible

listening to the excerpt from the Christmas Oratorio this morning i could hear a John lewis solo buried in the mix ...

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

The old Jimmy Reed, very simple, blues records had a wonderful "swing" even tho Reed was a nothing guiitarist. It was something, some awareness, between him and Eddie Taylor that very few could repeat. Its not always technique.

BN.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

...ahem, not quite

Yes, but that's what they all say. No-one ever elaborates. It's a bit like fox hunters who say the rest of us don't understand the countryside.

[Tenor Freak]

It's more of a relaxed feeling than anything else, a sense of effortlessness even when the musicians are working like mad. I suppose when I think of "swing" I think of someone like Billy Higgins, whose playing always makes me smile, even though he tended to play a bit ahead of the beat.

Here's a classic example:

Some players go ahead and behind the beat at will, such as Joe Henderson. On The Sidewinder he starts off playing slightly behind, then plays on the beat or thereabouts, then in certain sections (for example where he plays a series of short double-time runs) he speeds up.

Others always lag behind the beat and achieve swing that way - I think immediately of Dexter Gordon.

Interesting that Bluesnik mentioned Paul Chambers and Philly Joe Jones, because there's an example of a rhythm section where one (Chambers) played slightly behind the beat and the other (Jones) played slightly ahead of it. I think it was Ian Carr who pointed this out, and suggested that was the reason why the first great Miles quintet swung so much

[Tenor Freak]

And another great example of swing...the incomparable Charles Mingus and Dannie Richmond where it's achieved as much by attitude as by anything else

[Tenor Freak]

Last example...a stone cold classic if ever there was one...this is a hard-swinging group, and I think demonstrates Ian Carr's observation about the bass and drums.

[MrGongGong]

Yes, but that's what they all say. No-one ever elaborates. .

Maybe because the frame of reference that regards music as being "IN" 3/4, 4/4, 9/8 etc etc isn't appropriate for some musics ?