Krupa or Rich?

[Serial_Apologist]

Parker didnt want Rich anywhere near that date and lobbied for Roy Haynes to be in his place. Granz wanted Rich to demonstrate a...melting pot. Eh?

Victory to the ANC.

BN.

And I think the salient point is that at the time it was felt rare enough to get Bird, Diz and Monk into a recording studio to feel rightly disappointed that a drummer best suited to augment their pioneering role such as would have been Klook was not selected.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

...... and especially Roy Haynes .... Granz would be pushing the JATP jam session approach eh? not ignoble but a real pity nonetheless..
compare the Quintet of the Year with Powell Mingus & Roach ...

and this branch of the discussion raises the point that picking an individual out from an ensemble is not always the most reliable way to consider what is going on ... in terms of swing and big bands one might want to consider the best combination of lead trumpet and drummer [Thad and Mel?].. or the wonderful Basie rhythm machine

btw the band with best attack i have heard is this one

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Roy Haynes had a difficult/tense early relationship with Rich as Bird wanted him, Haynes, on the JATP tours behind him....later they became admirers...of sorts.

Elvin with Hines is a distraction, Elvin could play with anyone. Even my ducks.

BN.

[Ian Thumwood]

Bluesnik

I think that Rich was an abrasive character and had a tendency to destroy any soloist who was incapable of performing with the same level of aggresion. My point is that this session was not the out and out disaster it was supposed to have been even if I totally agree that Roy Haynes would have made the session even better.


Don't understand you comment about Elvins being a distraction to Hines. Do you mean that this isn't relevent to the argument (I think there would be plenty of fans of the mainstream who would have found Jones' appearance on that album a huge mis-match) or are you suggesting that Hines' music is irrelevent? I think this is a very good album and all the better for mixing the likes of Sonny Greer, Pee Wee Russell, Lawrence Brown, Johnny Hodges. As far as Jones being able to play with anyone , this is clearly not the case. As I suggested, the recording Coltrane made with Ellington shows that the drummer had no grasp of backing the pianist. The whole disc is a fascinating failure where some of the tracks are amazing and others are a bit of a train wreck. I would suggest that the tracks with Sam Woodyard actually work best as this drummer had grasped the mettle of both Ellington and Coltrane (just as he would do later with Steve Lacy.) You might also do well to check out the trio album made by Bill Frisell, Dave Holland and Elvin Jones where none of the three musicians gel and the set just comes across as a trio playing with little enthusiasm for the music. Prior to it's release, the rumours were that this was going to be an amazing disc yet, dspite the stellar line up, it remains one of the weakest efforts Frisell recorded with Elvin being no match for the likes of Joey Baron, Rudy Royston or Brian Blade in interrpreting Frisell's approach. This is far more of a disaster than the Buddy Rich / Parker session and the whole record just sounds like a rehearsal with three musicians have little interest in the other member's of the band. This is a shame and the thought of Frisell unleashing some industrial-scale menace on his guitar with Elvin firing behind him was a truly relishing prospect. I think that Elvin Jones is amongst my favourite drummers yet he could have his off days too.

[Quarky]

It always amazes me just hiw much stick Buddy Rich gets for these records made with Charlie Parker and it is one of the most lazy cliches ever trotted out in jazz . I don't think this track is anything less than exceptional - easily the definitive recording of this tune and on which Rich is entirely sympathetic to the other soloists. (Although on this take, it is Bird who fluffs his break and Rich is imperious.)

The strange thing about the criticism ("feckin clueless" ) is that whilst Rich obviously didn't get bebop drumming, the results still swing. I have to say that the criticism with Rich never seems to work when the boot is on te other foot. A lot of the appeal in jazz for me is the fact that disimilar musicians are often matched up in the studio. .

It seems to me that the criticism of Buddy Rich may have had much to do with calum's infamous "elephant in the room".

Why did Rich get all the attention, when Catlett's recording of Salt Peanuts stands out as one of the early be-bop classics?

But these are battles that have been fought and (largely) won, as far as I can see. Instead of raking over embers, how about something more present day? ::

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDQ_8aqmKAo