What Jazz Needs still

[Jazz_Services]

Hello everyone. Firstly, I'd like to thank Ivor for bringing our recent survey to the attention of the forum, and for anyone who's taken the trouble to fill it in.

As regards the problems with our website, we're very much aware of the issue and our I.T. support people are doing their best to get it sorted out. It's a particularly pernicious issue and one that's difficult to completely eradicate, often resurfacing after its apparent initial removal - hence the continuing bad links. There's a post on the website that explains more, which for the ease of this forum's readers' I've pasted below:

"Recent users who come to our website via Google may have seen some unusual results returned when searching for Jazz Services. Sadly our website's been altered by a third party and infiltrated with some malicious code which alters the results displayed by Google, meaning that some search results for Jazz Services show adverts for, ahem, *medical products*, as opposed to the legitimate content.

This process is known as 'cloaking', and is apparently one of the more common forms of online sabotage. In Google's own words, "Cloaking is the practice of presenting one version of a webpage to Googlebot and a different version to users." The unwanted code makes the site display different content to Google's search programmes, and hence to the user when searching, than what is actually on the site itself.

We're fully aware of the problem and would like to assure our users that our IT support staff are looking into the problem and will resolve it as soon as possible. In the meantime, the Jazz Services site itself is safe to use and navigate around - again, cloaking affects the results that Google shows, rather than what the site itself displays when viewed. Other search engines may not be affected, and when we have the unwanted code removed, Google's search results will revert to normal.

We apologise for any confusion or inconvenience this is causing to our users, and we hope that normal service will resume shortly. As ever, we're still working hard for jazz. Just not quite in the way that our hackers would have you believe..."

Hopefully this will help set this forum's readers' minds at rest, and should anyone wish to take part in the survey we would of course be very grateful for your input.

With thanks,

John Lyons,
Communications Manager, Jazz Services

[french frank]

Thanks for the explanation, John. I usually like to check any new links that are posted and my impression was that the spam links were intended to divert googlers (so that they would click on the spam link rather than Jazz Services). But I thought the website might be 'illegally' picking up information with the result that people would be constantly pestered thereafter with online ads.

Good luck with sorting it.

[Serial_Apologist]

Jazz Services is a vital organisation for the music and has an exemplary record going back more years than I can remember...

That said, I hope they sort the problem soon and let us know, as I and I'm sure others are cautious about attempting the survey, important though it is

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Jazz IS dead, it just needs to be buried with respect and some dignity. Its the black and white minstral show with all vitality,politics and connection drained away... It's the Paul Jones R&B show, near white, deeply offensive, with no depth, posturing.

BN.

[Alyn_Shipton]

In response to Mr Cockburn,

I would have thought you'd be better informed.

if you listened through my talk before criticising it, you might be better informed yourself about Jazz Services' use of statistics in a major report on broadcasting. I was asked by the Birmingham conference in 2010 to analyse it. And that is what I did - as far as I know the only detailed academic response to the document. A document so flawed that in its analysis of jazz on the BBC, broadly critical of the lack of British jazz on the airwaves, it omitted to mention Big Band Special which employed a significant number of British Jazz musicians, and which was scythed to 26 programmes a year shortly afterwards. Several of the statistical comparisons were not comparing like with like, and the historical assumptions about UK versus US artists ignored such factors as the MU ban on US musicians from 1932 until the 70s. I recognise JSL has done a considerable amount of good work. But its recent reports - including the previous one on the value of jazz in the UK - have not been up to the standard of its work in supporting live musicians, the touring scheme and so on. I am aware of the survey, but like others was not inclined to complete it when first made aware of it, because of the problems with the JSL website. Good to hear these are being attended to.

[french frank]

Alyn
I'd like to move your previous post to a new thread as I wanted to comment on various points you made, but that would move the discussion in a different direction from the OP.

[handsomefortune]

i thoroughly approve of both of your most recent thread moving decisions french frank

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

Jazz Services is a vital organisation for the music and has an exemplary record going back more years than I can remember...

That said, I hope they sort the problem soon and let us know, as I and I'm sure others are cautious about attempting the survey, important though it is

agreed S_A, let us hope they fix the problem, i for one do not want to attract a cascade of Viagra spam ...

let us know when it is fixed Jazz Services and we would be happy to join the debate ... there are a few views around here!

and please let us not continue banging tin cans about each other .... in the end it makes little difference to the great wide world of Jazz or R3 [you should have seen the stuff about Ornette Coleman in the Melody Maker back in the day]

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

I always take Viagra before I listen to jazz...the sound of surprise...

BN.

[Russ]

Alyn Shipton's talk dwelt, understandably, at some length about 'the stats' - the numbers of listeners to particular jazz programmes on various stations, and the vagaries of the RAJAR figures etc. Because of programme timings, one of Alyn's themes cited the probable practice of many jazz fans in recording programmes to be listened to later - in modern lingo, 'time-shifted' listening. Although the BBC will have specific per-programme RAJAR figures, these are the live-only figures of course, and subject to the usual errors of RAJAR methodology. What the BBC will have much more accurate data on is the time-shifted per-programme figures, and although time-shifting is thought to be a small proportion for music programmes, the time-shifted figures could provide a useful perspective to the Jazz Services survey IMO.

Russ

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

stable doors and horses come to mind ...

El Senor Blues has a point ....why should the world pay attention to jazz ..?

does serious painting get as much attention as Damien 'n Tracy?

how about poetry?

the application of market and celebrity models to arts like Jazz is to miss the point ... many of the arts are minority tastes [e. g. Opera!!!]

what are we arguing for, and how is it proposed too get it?

there are presently how many youngsters in Music Colleges specialising in Jazz in the UK? EU? Japan? USA? .... more than any of us think - i met one charming lad plays piano but he had not heard of Lennie Tristano ... like many youngsters i meet they 'know nowt' never heard of major figures etc ... which is why R3's playlist approach so dispirits me .. every generation needs to know why Schubert's Octet is great said a classical chap some years back on the Music Matters slot ... well for youngsters who only know the Big Phat Band and Michael Buble i am sure Ian could suggest some listening ...

it is always down to the new kids on the block, how well do we talk to them about what they are disciovering and we love ...

on that criterion i think R3 sucks and no numbers will put that right

[french frank]

i thoroughly approve of both of your most recent thread moving decisions french frank

Merci, 'Andsome. In fact, what I'll do is copy it to a new thread, leaving the original in place. Already I see the discussion moving along the lines that I was thinking, so I'll move the relevant posts over for a more focused discussion.

[Lateralthinking1]

May I just clarify that I wasn't being critical of the idea of this survey. Good luck to those involved with it. However, accepted methodology is a straitjacket. Thinking outside the box is rarely permitted. So, across the media, the same old questions tend to be asked. There are the usual responses. A few new things are thrown in - ie new technology. Otherwise, nothing much changes.

I came in on the point about comparisons with commercial radio because they rarely make any sense to me. There were other aspects in Alyn's talk, for example the idea of listening to jazz late at night and then naturally to "Breakfast on 3" because that is how the radio is tuned. That, though, is the concept of broadening out from jazz. To increase the number of listeners to jazz, you need to know what streets people are in currently and find the most likely route of getting them from there. The same applies to classical music and world music. Hardly any questions are ever asked about such things.....because of the accepted methodology!

There are at least three relevant questions. The first concerns the extent of preference for British jazz among jazz enthusiasts of all ages. That one will predictably be in many jazz surveys. The results are likely to be similar to those in any era. Secondly, there is the question about those who attend live jazz events. Would they be more likely to tune into R3 if there was more British jazz? This question also applies to all ages but might be asked especially of youth. It too will be in any survey. However, the number of listeners is unlikely to receive a huge boost from that cohort. It is significant in its domain but not at all in the wider picture.

The third is simply about radio attracting other people to jazz. This is the one that will not be asked in jazz surveys. It is though considerably more important in showing what is and isn't possible. Do we think that classical music devotees are likely to be the ones to move across to jazz? What about middle age soul boys? 1990s ravers? People who generally listen to Radio 4? I don't know. Nobody knows. What I do know is that the majority of young people in particular are attuned to Top 40 material. They are not asking themselves why there isn't more British jazz on the radio and agreeing that they would listen to jazz in that instance.

To me, this is quite easy. I don't need a survey to tell me that some came to jazz in the 1970s via the likes of Soft Machine. You see it to some extent on this forum. Nevertheless, with respect, that was 40 years ago. At some point shortly afterwards, that all stopped. Conceivably Radio 3 could have played Sade, Working Week and Everything But The Girl in 1984. The number of people who listened and then went on to listen to Medeski, Scofield, Martin and Wood in 2012 still probably wouldn't fill a large room. The same is true today. You could probably alienate half of the existing audience even by playing something rather non-mainstream and conceivably cutting edge, just off the jazz boundary. Three Trapped Tigers. They are pretty good for what they are and British too. But I don't see the inclusion of them or any retro jazz funk outfit or post acid jazz thing achieving anything in the long term.

In my humble opinion, surveys find the answers they are seeking. They won't ask questions that get to the real truth. And I think that Radio 3 has to provide a quality service that appeals to the people who know jazz. Others will then find it in their own way. You can tweak it here and there to attract those who are three quarters of the way across the threshold already. If you do, that's very welcome. But to move that on further, any understanding would need to be highly sophisticated and nuanced. I am not sure that it would be possible given the resources. Whatever you do, don't expect big numbers. They won't happen and the service shouldn't be dependent on them. It serves who it serves. Governments, of course, need to be advised and, where necessary, told.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Ive said this before but the last run of classic Bluenote reissues sold as few as 350 copies in the US...a market that size.

We are either a minority of a minority or ....

Last one, slam the door.

BN.

Then again, as we say on the Guardian, If this aint jazz, what is it? Flippin' burgers? MARCUS ROBERTS..

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

art is dying El Senor ... it is only for the Corpocats innit

us effin plebs are heading rapidly for the darkness ...