What Jazz Needs still

[Guest]

Hello my old friends. Having just stumbled upon your post Radio 3 messageboard refuge and finding so many familiar voices saying so many familiar things it has quite made my return to these shores feel like old times. I did try to post this yesterday, but can find no trace today. Perhaps I did something wrong or do we have pre-mod here?

In case the original has dissappeared into cyblivion, here it is again, if its a repeat, my apologies:

Jazz Services Limited at the behest of the Arts Council is running a survey inviting anyone who cares about Jazz to comment on what could be done to help. This is the first time any funding authority has ever asked for input into Jazz and a lack of response may well be damaging. So if you feel inclined please go to JSL's website and do the survey. Its easy and quick and completely open. But it closes very soon so please respond asap.

If this survey has already been flagged up here,my apologies, if not it really should have been.

[french frank]

Ivor - there was a bit of a problem with that website: I removed your post while I was investigating it. I understand the website is usually absolutely fine, but there were signs that it may have been hacked (by spammers).

People are free to google it and make up their own minds from the google hit.

[Google: jazz services v****a - and you'll see what I mean if you replace the asterisks]

[Old Grumpy]

I do see what you mean - the clue may be in the name of the originator of this thread!

[Ivor Cockburn]

I do see what you mean - the clue may be in the name of the originator of this thread!

Ah ok I see. No its genuine, I promise. JSL's website has been hacked, a month or so ago, I thought they had fixed it by now, but yes if its still showing the Viag~## hack I think its the site. I do know many genuine jazz people who have done the survey, but if JSL can't get this fixed its going to compromise the survey too! You presumably do know and are familiar with JSLs website?

Its nothing to do with my name here. I shall alert JSL that the hack is dissuading folk from responding.
This may be a very serious consequence for jazz. The first time such a survey is comissioned and it gets hampered.

Might I ask any of you who wish to respond to email in JSL saying you don't trust the website?

Please do, this is a very important issue for Jazz.
Callum, if you are in doubt about what I say do make your own enquiries. Chris Hodgkin is the man at JSL to contact.
Ivor.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

are these the correct details?

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Ivor Cockburn = Wayne Kerr.

IMHO.

BN.

[Ivor Cockburn]

Jazz services

are these the correct details?

www jazzservices org uk is the website. If you are not willing to trust the website email Chris Hodgkin at JSL. Seriously, if the survey is rendered less effective because of the hack it would be a tragedy for jazz.

Like I said in my original post,this survey was tried about a year ago but it was stopped, but it is now definitely on.

IMO what jazz needs is people to listen to it. If that were to happen everything else would follow. But if the survey shows a poor return -its kind of indicating that few listen and fewer care. I know thats not true but funding bodies need to know, and in their weird world, surveys and statistics are what count.
So if you think licensing laws need changing, if you think more funding for touring musicians, if you think home grown talent needs a showcase, if you think the BBC should be made to do more- whatever,- let them know.

Please.

Ivor

[french frank]

Sorry to be ultra fussy. I've removed the link code. If the site does have spamming problems a link from this site will show up in someone's analytics. I spend enough time removing spammers as it is.

[Alyn_Shipton]

No doubt this will lead to more "research publications" from Jazz Services. If anyone can be bothered to sit through it, this is my take on their deeply flawed work on jazz and broadcasting: http://vimeo.com/16690553

[Ivor Cockburn]

No doubt this will lead to more "research publications" from Jazz Services. If anyone can be bothered to sit through it, this is my take on their deeply flawed work on jazz and broadcasting: http://vimeo.com/16690553

Alyn, without bothering to sit through your video and reluctant as I am to sound contentious so soon after starting to post, I find your response shocking. As a broadcaster I would have thought you'd show more responsibility. And I would have thought you'd be better informed. This survey may not amount to anything, or it might be important in playing a part in increasing funding support and increasing the profile of jazz and its makers. I don't know, but I do know if its ignored or attitudes such as yours are seen as prevalent, NOBODY in jazz will benefit. You might be on a nice little earner from Jazz Alyn, it doesn't reflect well on you to appear to be denying that of others. JSL does a LOT of good work on behalf of Jazz musicians AND educators and there are a lot of respected jazz names involved. If you have something to say about it, do the survey.

[Ivor Cockburn]

Sorry to be ultra fussy. I've removed the link code. If the site does have spamming problems a link from this site will show up in someone's analytics. I spend enough time removing spammers as it is.

Ok, well I can't do much more.
If you're in doubt contact JSL direct. But notwithstanding Alyn's unhelpful contribution please do it soon. Unless JSL extend the survey window because of the hack, it will close soon and the opportunity will be lost.

It doesn't seem as this survey was on any of your radars so I'll give you some background.

About a year ago Liz Forgan of ACE declared that though ACE supports Jazz through JSL and other bodies, it had no formal data in what the sector actually needed, either strategically or structurally. Despite the various supported organisations reporting on their work it was not adequate to plan or identify weakness (or strengths) especially in the context of the amount of available funding becoming markedly less. Therefore it would be prudent to find out.
So FOR THE FIRST TIME, they thought they would ask for input about Jazz from the 'public' .
And to start with they commissioned JSL to run a survey. Shortly after it was launched, ACE went off the idea and it was stopped. Now after reconsidering, and against ever worsening financial climate, the survey is on again.
Thats all I know.
I'm deeply concerned about the hack, and perfectly understand the caution exercised here. I can only urge you to take the survey seriously and contact JSL direct.

[french frank]

I'm deeply concerned about the hack, and perfectly understand the caution exercised here.

I haven't removed the web address, just the link code which would provide information about this forum, sometimes welcome sometimes not.

Alyn, I've sat through it . Several points resonated with me - but I'll come back on this tomorrow (it's gone a bit cold as I've let the fire go out).

[Lateralthinking1]

I have sat through it and found it informative. It isn't clear to me what the specific concerns of the Arts Council are. They seem to be wide ranging and, with respect, a bit vague. A key point seems to be that the BBC could provide more, new, British jazz. I don't have a view on that matter other than to note that new artists in any genre obviously wish to have airplay. That's always true.

I don't comprehend the argument about attracting younger listeners. At 15 and even 24, my musical tastes were either modish or based on the music of my childhood. That was the way I wanted things to be. It came naturally. Like very many, I partially comprehended that I would grow into less commercial areas, and specific genres, over a period of time. Even as a music fanatic, that has come slowly. It doesn't come to the overwhelming majority at all. Why should it do? Not everyone has a wish to study music. The millions in that category are more than well served. While Gilles Peterson may have been playing in the background to shelf stackers, and is hence a poor comparison, surely this is even more true of daytime radio output, wherever it happens to be.

Given my background, a lazy assumption would be that I would choose to be eased in to the unfamiliar gently. Jazz FM would be the place for me. However, much as I appreciate George Benson, Stevie Wonder, Ella Fitzgerald and Herbie Hancock, (numbers 1, 4, 5 and 10 on its playlist currently), I know about them. I knew about them in the 1970s, just as I knew about Weather Report. And, frankly, the idea that these artists together are enough to represent jazz strikes me as totally ludicrous. I don't understand the comparison, particularly when I then see Al Jarreau at number 15. Furthermore, none of them are British, none of them are young, and none of them most obviously appeal to the 0-24 age group. Without a shadow of a doubt, the target age is 55-60+.

Don't get me wrong. Jazz FM has its place. There are one or two presenters on there who can bring back memories of soul weekenders attended by people I knew. That music is a part of my youth or at least the part of it that was aspiration. I can listen to it wryly, knowing that those aspirations were fulfilled in completely different ways. I also think that Dave Freeman's 'Blues and Boogie' programme has a lot going for it. Details here - http://www.jazzfm.com/2012/10/blues-...-27th-october/. However, the latter is a rarity. Again, it is hardly likely to draw in British youth. To do so in significant numbers, you would need to depart from jazz to the point where it isn't jazz at all. We are now even long past the main era of acid jazz so it would essentially be dance.

While I don't have a problem with recent British jazz artists on radio, what I look for principally is the history. Secondly, I make a point now of learning about releases from the main "unequivocally jazz" artists in the current year. But I don't feel that my views on the current can be sound without having a very firm grounding. And, actually, I often most appreciate the records made before I was born. They can sound fresher and, having no personal or generational associations, can be better enjoyed in their own right. Yes, sure, that's just me. Other people will be different but, seeing that we largely know what lifelong jazz enthusiasts appreciate, who precisely is in this audience the BBC allegedly doesn't capture? Does it exist or is it in truth some sort of mythical fantasy?

The alternative is to expect that some at 30, 40, 50 or 60 will develop, with the help of sympathetic but uncompromising media, into an appreciation of quality. To me, that is the best approach. I do though have one further point with reference to that Freeman programme. Just as JRR offers the terrific opportunity to sample a wide range of jazz music, and the JL podcasts provide a wonderful introduction to key artists, there is something to be said for focussing on specific sub-genres. Some of the orientation around jazz can be difficult. I am not sure that in my Spotify lists every track is correctly placed. I can agonise over bop, hard bop, post bop and neo bop, free jazz and avant garde. The BBC could guide a little more in that respect. Otherwise, I'm happy.

[Ivor Cockburn]

I haven't removed the web address, just the link code which would provide information about this forum, sometimes welcome sometimes not.

Understood and appreciated. JSL are aware of the problem.

[french frank]

Understood and appreciated. JSL are aware of the problem.

So I see!