Ornette Coleman ~ Chappaqua Suite

[Jazzrook]

Very glad to see this Ornette album back in the catalogue at long last. I remember Charles Fox praising it on 'Jazz Today' back in the '60s.
Did have the double LP for a while but it somehow got 'lost'.

https://www.cherryred.co.uk/shopexd.asp?id=3795

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

try utube!

[Jazzrook]

Ornette's soundtrack to 'Who's Crazy', last seen as a double-LP on AFFINITY(AFF 102) is also long over-due for reissue on CD.

https://www.atane.net/2011/12/29/documentary-ornette-coleman-whos-crazy/

[Ian Thumwood]

Jazzrook

That documentary his terrific! Thanks for posting that link.

It's bizarre to think that people were so hostile towards Ornette Coleman's music as it seems to tuneful and catchy these days! To my ears, there is little that is shocking or untoward about it - it's just great funto listen to.

[Jazzrook]

Ornette Coleman's hard-to-find IMPULSE! albums 'Ornette At 12'(1968) & the live 'Crisis'(1969) will, at last, be issued on a single CD on September 8, 2017:

http://www.realgonemusic.com/news/2017/7/11/ornette-coleman-ornette-at-12crisis-cd.html

JR

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Ornette Coleman's hard-to-find IMPULSE! albums 'Ornette At 12'(1968) & the live 'Crisis'(1969) will, at last, be issued on a single CD on September 8, 2017:

http://www.realgonemusic.com/news/2017/7/11/ornette-coleman-ornette-at-12crisis-cd.html

JR

Crisis is very good. What's NOT very good is the single disc Impulse reissue of "For Losers" c/w "Kwanza" by Archie Shepp. (1969). I bought this at the weekend and it's an appalling waste of talent, Woody Shaw, Moncur, Spaulding, Joe Chambers, Cecil Payne, Wilbur Ware et al playing Shepp's God awful attempt at "funk". The average Stax album from the mid sixties is ten times as hip. And far better played.

What were they thinking...it's about as "Street" as the North circular.

BN.

[Ian Thumwood]

Crisis is very good. What's NOT very good is the single disc Impulse reissue of "For Losers" c/w "Kwanza" by Archie Shepp. (1969). I bought this at the weekend and it's an appalling waste of talent, Woody Shaw, Moncur, Spaulding, Joe Chambers, Cecil Payne, Wilbur Ware et al playing Shepp's God awful attempt at "funk". The average Stax album from the mid sixties is ten times as hip. And far better played.

What were they thinking...it's about as "Street" as the North circular.

BN.

Of all the avant garde players that I have listened to, I find Shepp amongst the most under-whelming. I have not listened to "Four for 'Trane" which is supposed to be his masterpiece but I have a more recent record from the 1990's with a German pianist which is pretty average. At Vienne this year he was on a double bill with Pharoah Sanders but effectively was shown up by Nasheet Waits and Jason Moran who seemed far more adventurous and "hip." The problem with Shepp is that he morphed into a poor Swing Era style tenor player at some point and whilst the "right on" political elements may earn him some credit, he has been trading off this for too long. Catch him performing now and you will find him crooning standards.

Whilst I don't find Shepp's music difficult or challenging, the avant garde movement has moved on and I don't feel he really cuts the mustard any more. He is decidedly mainstream these days which is ok but there are so many other players around who do this kind of thing much better it is not really worth bothering with him. Shepp is not a player whose records I would track down with much enthusiasm and with players around like David Murray, there isn't really much reason to bother doing so. His tone sounds a bit rugged by today's standards and I am not even convinced he was as technically accomplished as many of his contemporaries when he was at his peak. It was interesting to hear him follow on from Sanders at Vienne and to contrast Pharoah's enthusiasm for two-chord vamps which seem quite affable and approachable these days whereas in surrounding himself with more savvy musicians Shepp merely outlined the differences between today's contemporary jazz musicians and those at the forefront in the late 60's.

I am probably being a bit controversial here but I wondered if anyone else felts that Impulse is a little bit over-rated? The classic Coltrane records really made this label but post-JC there is a loss of focus. Despite the claim to be a champion of "outside" music, it is pretty easy to get the beneath what is happening on a lot of Impulse records with the underlying structures on some discs being quite simplistic. e.g. Sanders or the most recent CD I bought, Sun Ra's "Space is the place" which is pretty poor with very little actually going on in the title track. (The playing is also pretty rough on this disc in comparison with "Jazz in Silhouette" which is one of the best records I have snapped up this year.) Some of the freer stuff from 1968 - early 70's could be poor and I would have to say there is nothing as bad in jazz as poor avant garde music. When it is bad, it is the absolute pits. Fascinating to contrast this with the freer elements on albums such as Herbie's "Empyrean Isles" or the pianist's work with Bobby Hutcherson (listen to a track like "The Omen" as well as work by the likes of Andrew Hill , Sam Rivers etc on Blue Note which is more "out" and far more musically intelligent. I would even have to say that I thinkso many free jazz players who have been producing music from the 1980's onwards have tended to produce a more potent body of work than had been produced during the famous second wave of free playing that took up the mantle from Ornette from 1964 onwards. For example, can't see much of the Impulse material from that era standing up to the discography of players like William Parker who have consistently done this kind of thing so much better.

I wasn't too

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Of all the avant garde players that I have listened to, I find Shepp amongst the most under-whelming. I have not listened to "Four for 'Trane" which is supposed to be his masterpiece but I have a more recent record from the 1990's with a German pianist which is pretty average. At Vienne this year he was on a double bill with Pharoah Sanders but effectively was shown up by Nasheet Waits and Jason Moran who seemed far more adventurous and "hip." The problem with Shepp is that he morphed into a poor Swing Era style tenor player at some point and whilst the "right on" political elements may earn him some credit, he has been trading off this for too long. Catch him performing now and you will find him crooning standards.

Whilst I don't find Shepp's music difficult or challenging, the avant garde movement has moved on and I don't feel he really cuts the mustard any more. He is decidedly mainstream these days which is ok but there are so many other players around who do this kind of thing much better it is not really worth bothering with him. Shepp is not a player whose records I would track down with much enthusiasm and with players around like David Murray, there isn't really much reason to bother doing so. His tone sounds a bit rugged by today's standards and I am not even convinced he was as technically accomplished as many of his contemporaries when he was at his peak. It was interesting to hear him follow on from Sanders at Vienne and to contrast Pharoah's enthusiasm for two-chord vamps which seem quite affable and approachable these days whereas in surrounding himself with more savvy musicians Shepp merely outlined the differences between today's contemporary jazz musicians and those at the forefront in the late 60's.

I am probably being a bit controversial here but I wondered if anyone else felts that Impulse is a little bit over-rated? The classic Coltrane records really made this label but post-JC there is a loss of focus. Despite the claim to be a champion of "outside" music, it is pretty easy to get the beneath what is happening on a lot of Impulse records with the underlying structures on some discs being quite simplistic. e.g. Sanders or the most recent CD I bought, Sun Ra's "Space is the place" which is pretty poor with very little actually going on in the title track. (The playing is also pretty rough on this disc in comparison with "Jazz in Silhouette" which is one of the best records I have snapped up this year.) Some of the freer stuff from 1968 - early 70's could be poor and I would have to say there is nothing as bad in jazz as poor avant garde music. When it is bad, it is the absolute pits. Fascinating to contrast this with the freer elements on albums such as Herbie's "Empyrean Isles" or the pianist's work with Bobby Hutcherson (listen to a track like "The Omen" as well as work by the likes of Andrew Hill , Sam Rivers etc on Blue Note which is more "out" and far more musically intelligent. I would even have to say that I thinkso many free jazz players who have been producing music from the 1980's onwards have tended to produce a more potent body of work than had been produced during the famous second wave of free playing that took up the mantle from Ornette from 1964 onwards. For example, can't see much of the Impulse material from that era standing up to the discography of players like William Parker who have consistently done this kind of thing so much better.

I wasn't too

Impulse even it's prime also included a degree of dross. This got worse over time as Bob Thiele gave way to Ed Michel, although the former wasn't blameless. The 1969 Shepp record ("Losers") is a desperately lame attempt at a then contemporary relevance, with Leon Thomas's vocals sounding like a tenth rate Wilson Pickett. So why not get Pickett? Doris Troy is on it...somewhere, lost in the mix.

Conversely, I think "Four for Trane" is a fabulous and significant recording. Although some of that must be down to Roswell Rudd's arrangements and the band. I once said on here that Sheep's own later vocals reminded me (strangely) of George Melly. That was in no way a compliment.

BN.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Impulse even it's prime also included a degree of dross. This got worse over time as Bob Thiele gave way to Ed Michel, although the former wasn't blameless. The 1969 Shepp record ("Losers") is a desperately lame attempt at a then contemporary relevance, with Leon Thomas's vocals sounding like a tenth rate Wilson Pickett. So why not get Pickett? Doris Troy is on it...somewhere, lost in the mix.

Conversely, I think "Four for Trane" is a fabulous and significant recording. Although some of that must be down to Roswell Rudd's arrangements and the band. I once said on here that Sheep's own later vocals reminded me (strangely) of George Melly. That was in no way a compliment.

BN.

As an aside, someone on a US website (I think Organissimo) said that Shepp was always as much a dramatist as a player. Far more concerned with his music's impact and theatricality. I don't think this is totally true, the earlier work with Cecil Taylor or the NYCF etc but it's a good observation. And that was his early calling.

BN.

[Jazzrook]

Impulse even it's prime also included a degree of dross. This got worse over time as Bob Thiele gave way to Ed Michel, although the former wasn't blameless. The 1969 Shepp record ("Losers") is a desperately lame attempt at a then contemporary relevance, with Leon Thomas's vocals sounding like a tenth rate Wilson Pickett. So why not get Pickett? Doris Troy is on it...somewhere, lost in the mix.

Conversely, I think "Four for Trane" is a fabulous and significant recording. Although some of that must be down to Roswell Rudd's arrangements and the band. I once said on here that Sheep's own later vocals reminded me (strangely) of George Melly. That was in no way a compliment.

BN.

I agree that Shepp's 'Four for Trane' is a classic but would say that his 1968 Impulse! album 'The Way Ahead' is not far behind:

Here's his powerful and passionate blues 'Damn If I Know(The Stroller)' with Walter Davis Jr.(piano); Ron Carter(bass) & Roy Haynes(drums):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s8Vyh-QBhHE

JR

[Ian Thumwood]

Jazzrook

I really liked that Shepp track although Haynes and Walter Davis are the best thing about it, to be honest. What is strange is that it might have been considered "avant garde" at the time but the music really is not too dissimilar to the kind of stuff that an earlier tenor player like Illinois Jacquet might have produced. It is probably the best thing I have heard him play although I would still plump for David Murray over Shepp every time.

It is strange how so many of the avant garde tenor players almost reverted back to a Coleman Hawkins style of playing in later life. I find it intriguing that so many of the free players from the 60's didn't stick to their guns or mellowed with the passing of years whereas bop players frequently managed to pick up more contemporary influences. Listening in 2017 Shepp sounded really retro and a good deal behind the pace. Those more adventurous players who emerged in the 70's like Braxton or Threadgill seem to have remained more faithful to their initial incarnations. Producing a handful of great records in the first 10 years of your career seems to have cemented Shepp's reputation even though his legacy isn't anywhere as near as potent as musicians working in a similar field such as Parker, Threadgill, Bang or Murray. It is a strange situation for Shepp because these days players of this ilk and more stringent than many of their contemporaries are making the jazz that I think really counts these days. Shepp's generation may have blazed the path but I much prefer the avant garde players who are making records today. Wondered if you had checked our Keefe Jackson, a tenor player who isn't quite "in your face" as Shepp yet equally committed to challenging the mainstream as his late 60's counterparts?