How significant would jazz be if this was a piano only art form?

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Its interesting how so many horn players work without the piano there closing things off.... "I dont need no pianist to show me chords" as Miles once said...chopping Herbie Hancock's left hand off with his razor. Worra bitch.

There's a very good Dexter Gordon album on Steeplechase with just Dex and bass and drums. Really shifts his approach to space and time.

BN.

[Tenor Freak]

Ornette told me once that one of the reasons he did not have a piano was because he was trying to get away from Western tempered tuning, and he felt more freed-up without it.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Ron Coltrane told me the reason he didn't often use a pianist is that Moira often ran away with them.

A bit like Joni Mitchell and bass players.

BN.

[charles t]

Bruce: Saw Ornette...God, gotta be about 20 years ago at an old movie theatre on downtown Broadway in L.A.

There was a sign posted at the box office that Don Cherry would not be appearing because of illness. (Passed on few years later.) So, only Ornette, Charlie Haden & Smilin' Billy Higgins.

So picture a very, very hot (as in deriving from the Sun) in this old-fashioned theatre - no air-conditioning (do Brits have it?) and would you believe it...late as hell, hotter than hell as Charlie Haden got deep into a solo and all these NON GLITZ & GLAM' L.A. jazzr's were on their feet cheering!

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Ornette likes to blow his own trumpet.

BN.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Ornette told me once that one of the reasons he did not have a piano was because he was trying to get away from Western tempered tuning, and he felt more freed-up without it.

Wise man.


(Or, if you prefer; "Wise, man.")

[MrGongGong]

Ornette likes to blow his own trumpet.

BN.

Surely it should be a cornet ?

[Serial_Apologist]

Well, I'm out of line with you fellas on this; while acknowledging there can be problems, there are "backing" pianists in free groups who do not imho get in the way of other improvisers, or create over-cluttered textures. It depends surely how harmonically adaptable, i.e. free they are, if the direction is away from chords-based.

McCoy Tyner in the Coltrane quartet 1960-1965, for one - or, if one prefers, Alice C with JC thereafter, to name just two, there being more than I could mention.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Stanley Cowell on the Harold Land/Hutcherson Antibe tape that Calum posted is really fantastic. Kicks and supports both Harold and Bobs and never gets in their way. Hell of a band. Joe Chambers is a giant.

BN.

[Tenor Freak]

McCoy Tyner in the Coltrane quartet 1960-1965, for one - or, if one prefers, Alice C with JC thereafter, to name just two, there being more than I could mention.

McCoy's role in that quartet, it seems to me, was mainly rhythmic, and to add a touch of romanticism from time to time. (Not that Trane couldn't be romantic as well, of course but Tyner could "play pretty".) Without him I think that group would have sounded rather austere and perhaps would not have been as popular as it was. But I don't know...mostly when I think of the quartet I think of McCoy's "Clumpman" playing...

For the rest see below

[Ian Thumwood]

A lot of these arguments seem to miss the point. I think piano-less groups are extremely fascinating and there are plenty of examples that I would suggest obviate the need for the keyboard. Probably the best example recently has been William Parker's quartet. In my opinion, these groups are reliant on a bass player with a really good set of ears and horn players who do far more than the usual, lazy, bebop , "going around the block" sort of playing. Counterpoint, plasying harmonies and soloing at the same time are all devices which are employed to make such groups interesting.

However, the point of these groups isn't that the piano is considered redunant rather to allow freer rhythmic expression devoid of lazy comping as well as to permit a degree of harmonic ambiguity. That said, as Bluesniks alluded, the Second Miles quintet seemed to find a creative solution where the piano could add to the effect of ambiguity. For me , a track like "Masquelero" on the "Sorceror" CD is a great example of this and one of the best studio examples of how resourceful someone like Herbie Hancock is. (The 3-CD live set from 1967 is pretty incredible too.) I would also sat that I don't do alone with the negative "clumpman" description of McCoy Tyner. His playing is like a harmonic carpet from which Coltrane could take inspiration from. Tyner is a really "odd" pianist as he had a reputation of being "modern" whilst there is a hell of a lot of Art Tatum in his playing albeit the left hand is playing consecutive fourths and not tenths like Tatum.

I've not listened to as much Harlem stride piano as I would like to, but I have the feeling that jazz pianists had probably moved to a more modern 4/4 before jazz ensembles where 2/4 seemed to linger longer in to the 1920's. i don't think this is the only example where jazz pianists were ahead of the curve. The Hines / Armstrong duet "Weatherbird" illustrates a meeting with perhaps the only jazz musician other than Armstrong who could have taken such radical liberties with the original King Oliver theme. Late, it was Lennie Tristano's groups who took this a stage further with some of the first ever "freely" improvised recordings ever made. If you look beyond rhythm and form, it was pianists like Tatum, Wilson and Nat "king" Cole who helped push the harmonic language ever wider before the Be-boppers. Maybe only Coleman Hawkins and Red Allen were the only non-piano players thinking in a similar fashion in the 1930's. Coles' playing always seems extremely modern for it's time as well.

I think the only time that jazz piano became perplexed by the problems presented by their fellow horn players was in the late forties and early fifties where the use of a swing bass and more radical approach to the beat mean't that the only alternative seemed to be the solution found by Bud Powell. It's probably true to say that jazz piano prior to the late fifties in it's "mainstream" sense is probably the least rewarding period for the instrument yet this was also the era that produced radicals like Tristano, Nichols, Monk, Hope, Garner and Twardzik who still seem idiosyncratic sixty-odd years after their heyday. Even if you consider the early fifties to be highly conservative (Ray Bryant, Benny Green, Horace Silver - slightly "regressive" in the folk / gospel roots of the latter???? ), there is no denying there were pianists around like Hampton Hawes who were capable of playing with a huge amount of energy and swing. The "bop" school probably reached it's apogee with Bill Evans and by this time had become almost recognisable from the kind of approach pioneered by the fabulous Bud Powell. It's also fascinating to hear how a pianist from the older generation like Duke Ellington modified his approach and a record like the wonderful "Back to back" features the same original and ruminative approach that you might also find in adventurous players like the hugely under-appreciated Paul Bley. In both instances, you can sence Bley and Ellington mulling over the next note that they wish to strike.

[Tenor Freak]

However, the point of these groups isn't that the piano is considered redunant rather to allow freer rhythmic expression devoid of lazy comping as well as to permit a degree of harmonic ambiguity. That said, as Bluesniks alluded, the Second Miles quintet seemed to find a creative solution where the piano could add to the effect of ambiguity. For me , a track like "Masquelero" on the "Sorceror" CD is a great example of this and one of the best studio examples of how resourceful someone like Herbie Hancock is. (The 3-CD live set from 1967 is pretty incredible too.) I would also sat that I don't do alone with the negative "clumpman" description of McCoy Tyner. His playing is like a harmonic carpet from which Coltrane could take inspiration from. Tyner is a really "odd" pianist as he had a reputation of being "modern" whilst there is a hell of a lot of Art Tatum in his playing albeit the left hand is playing consecutive fourths and not tenths like Tatum.

I <HEART> Sorcerer. I keep toying with the idea of having Limbo played at my funeral. It's my favourite Miles LP, and I've owned a copy for over 25 years. It took me a long time to understand what the group was doing, but it's clear that Herbie had enough sense to keep out of the way of the horns which, along with the awesome rhythm pairing of Carter and Williams, are the centre of the group. So, what should Herbie do? Lazy comping wouldn't do. So instead he punctuates the action elsewhere, or creates moods. Listening to a track like Vonetta, where he can use his harmonic freedom to put a chill right down your spine or insert an interlude before the horns recapitulate the head, he plays lines which are so apposite they seem as though they had been written out by a composer.

As for "Clumpman": that was an allusion to the old Bored, does not represent my own opinion of a fine pianist, and was shorthand for his heavily rhythmic playing (often) in that band...

[Ian Thumwood]

Bruce

You need to get a hold of this box set of Miles' work:-

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Miles-Davis-Quintet-Europe-Bootleg/dp/B005ARYEY6/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1348387599&sr=8-3

This is a staggeringly brilliant set of recordings (it also includes a DVD) and features many of the tunes from the studio sessions. The quality of the music is amazing and tends to put the studio sessions into presepctive. I feel "Miles Smiles" is probably this group's finest hour in the studio yet these sessions are easily of the same calibre. For me, this is group that redefined jazz and Hancock's role in the group established a level of ability on this instrument which raised the bar to even higher levels. Basically, in jazz piano there is a division of "Before Herbie" and "After Herbie."

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

I SECOND THAT BOX SET EMOTION. Brilliant and Miles total control evident on the dvd is worth the price.

BN. a semi-pro accordianist

[Tenor Freak]

Bruce

You need to get a hold of this box set of Miles' work:-

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Miles-Davis-Quintet-Europe-Bootleg/dp/B005ARYEY6/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1348387599&sr=8-3

Yes I must. So that European tour covered France, Belgium and Denmark? But as usual Blighty was missed of the schedule. A pity that Miles never appeared on Jazz 625.