if sigmund f's wife was yer ma you'd be dead by now innit

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

Alyn opens and closes with Miles; interesting track from Paul Gonsalves and Tubby Hayes ...

oh Geoffrey is it all too much ...an hour on Ella F means he didn't get out of bed ....

Julian Joseph presents the second part of a concert set by New York based fusion bassist Janek Gwizdala.
At the time of recording Gwizdala was fresh from world-touring with the likes of ex-Miles Davis guitarist Mike Stern and top jazz/funk trumpeter Randy Brecker. His band features the stellar line-up of saxophonist Bob Reynolds, who has previously played with Brian Blade, Tom Harrell, Richard Bona and rock star John Mayer; drummer Gary Husband who makes an outing on keyboards and former Dave Weckl student Louie Palmer on drums.The set captures the band in full hi-energy fusion mode and was recorded at Edinburgh's award winning venue The Jazz Bar.

plus JJ plays Autumn in New York by Lol Coxhill ....

jon3 Uri Caine Trio

In this performance, recorded at Ronnie Scott's, he returns to a more traditional piano trio format. He is joined by one of New York's most prolific bass players, John Hebert, who performs with avant-garde musicians such as Mary Halvorson as well as more straightahead groups led by the likes of pianist Fred Hersch; and drummer Clarence Penn, known for his textural approach and for appearing with, among others, French saxophonist Richard Galliano and bass player Charlie Haden.

[Serial_Apologist]

French saxophonist Richard Gallano

I could be mistaken but... not accordion to me!

[charles t]

" if sigmund f's wife was yer ma you'd be dead by now innit"

I am speaking on behalf of the Anonymous Alzheimers Society (sic) lack of, that is...

Our motto is:

"It takes an hour to get undressed at night...and...two hours to remember why" (exclm-mark assumed)

This topic is of no help...

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

This week's programme is unashamedly in black and white – in that we're throwing ourselves into the start of Radio 3's Piano Season. But our main performer tonight is one of the most Technicolor pianists around, steeped in the broad and evolving tradition of jazz piano that we'll be exploring a lot more in the coming weeks.

Uri Caine's musical projects range from reworkings of Mahler and orchestral commissions to drum and bass and beyond. But this week's gig is piano trio music in its purest sense.
It starts hard-swinging and Autumn Leaves even makes an appearance later on, but don't be fooled into settling down for a totally straightahead gig. Caine's arsenal of musical language is huge, and he and his trio frequently 'spin on a dime' (as he puts it in the half-time interview), changing direction and exploring new ideas mid-piece. There's a subtle freedom about the group that begins to emerge later in the first piece – including an inspired cowbell moment from drummer Clarence Penn! And they really come into their own in the second set – the chaotic climax of Crossbow is a far cry from the version of Autumn Leaves it segues out of, while John Hébert's nimble bass is great in the closer, when Caine's drum 'n' bass dabblings get an airing that works brilliantly in this trio context.

We start the programme with the first in a series profiling the best pianists you've never heard of – this week's choice comes from Veryan Weston. Later on, trumpeter Loz Speyer explains how Cuban influences have shaped his music; and I'll be revealing how I'm getting directly involved in the Piano Season.

jex in newsletter

[Serial_Apologist]

Wasn't last night's Janek Gwizdala band just awful??? Sheesh - all that macho bebop/fusion cliche-reproduction furniture! Gary H - respects, man, but with all your talent, whatcha doing in this godawful steamroller?

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

Wasn't last night's Janek Gwizdala band just awful??? Sheesh - all that macho bebop/fusion cliche-reproduction furniture! Gary H - respects, man, but with all your talent, whatcha doing in this godawful steamroller?

yep

[elmo]

Alyn opens and closes with Miles; interesting track from Paul Gonsalves and Tubby Hayes ...

oh Geoffrey is it all too much ...an hour on Ella F means he didn't get out of bed ....


plus JJ plays Autumn in New York by Lol Coxhill ....

jon3 Uri Caine Trio

What's your opinion of scat singing?
I listened to Geoffreys Ella programme on Saturday and while I really appreciate Ella's voice and the marvellous Songbook, Joe Pass and Ellis Larkins duo's I just can't hack the scat.
I have a very wide interest in all forms of Jazz but I just think that most scat sounds very corny, tacky and very dated. I appreciate the Armstrong classics where it seems to work but that version of " How high the moon" by Ella was awful, if assessed as an instrumental solo it was very uninspired and all the shoo be dooing makes you cringe. If ever you wanted to reinforce a non believers belief that Jazz is a spent force then this would do it.
Having said this I really appreciate Betty Carter and I do acccept that her scat singing is much more successful and inspired if assessed as an instrumental solo but I am still not easy with it.

What's your opinion?

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

hiya elmo nice to see you about tda bored


scat can leave me cold or not .... Annie Ross Twisted is divine ... not fond of Ella scatting at all

and Ms N Winstone does wordless to die for eh

[Serial_Apologist]

hiya elmo nice to see you about tda bored


scat can leave me cold or not .... Annie Ross Twisted is divine ... not fond of Ella scatting at all

and Ms N Winstone does wordless to die for eh

Agree here with Calum - depends who's doing the scat: Ella and Joe Williams on Basie's "Party Blues", great; Joe Carroll with Dizzy in the early 50s, (and Dizzy himself fwiw), hilarious. It depends on how musical the scatting is, if it's not just to be taken humorously, and there I have to admit I'm often found wanting (more musicality!) I'm often surprised how some jazz singers, who can phrase across the beat brilliantly with lyrics a la Billie Holiday, resort to a strange rhythmic rigidity when scatting - Shiela Jordan being one, deeply though I love her. As a jazz pianist friend of mine who accompanies three local singers said to me, when I asked him, "Why don't they try scat singing?" "Well, you've really got to know what you're doing... and they wouldn't!" Anita Wardell is a British (actually NZ-born) singer who really knows how to scat inventively, coming up with unexpected harmonic deviations and rhythmic circumlocutions like the best horn players; Maggie Nicols takes scat very effectively imv into the area of free improv, free association (!) and extended vocal techniques a la Cathy Berberian; and for a good example of someone I think is an excellent British male scat singer, Cleveland Watkiss ingeniously bridges a supposed line between scat and rap.

[handsomefortune]

What's your opinion of scat singing?
I listened to Geoffreys Ella programme on Saturday and while I really appreciate Ella's voice and the marvellous Songbook, Joe Pass and Ellis Larkins duo's I just can't hack the scat.
I have a very wide interest in all forms of Jazz but I just think that most scat sounds very corny, tacky and very dated. I appreciate the Armstrong classics where it seems to work but that version of " How high the moon" by Ella was awful, if assessed as an instrumental solo it was very uninspired and all the shoo be dooing makes you cringe. If ever you wanted to reinforce a non believers belief that Jazz is a spent force then this would do it.
Having said this I really appreciate Betty Carter and I do acccept that her scat singing is much more successful and inspired if assessed as an instrumental solo but I am still not easy with it.

What's your opinion?

fwiw my opinion is that your response suggests that you prefer your jazz sounding authentic primarily elmo. If ever you wanted to reinforce a non believers belief that Jazz is a spent force then this would do it. is so true ....unfortunately.

my own theory is that scat was a convention linking back to the practicalities of jazz (and blues) as 'home entertainment' or small club/church house venues, rather than to show biz and scat performance on eg broadway or carnegie hall for example. someone of the status of ella fitzgerald typically played huge venues, where tickets were expensive, and audiences felt that for the money all they need do was sit back, 'be entertained' by their favourite star performers. whereas perhaps originally, dramatic license, deviations from a lyric narrative, actually relied on those not scatting being supportive, ie sort of willing, or daring the scatter? perhaps scat also relied on audiences not being as passive, but buoyant, expectant and participant too? raucous even!! what might be required to scat successfully aren't necessarily risks that are going to be taken at a prestigious venue, where fellow performers are hoping to return....! consequently, scat can often sound like 'something to be stomached' as convention...rather than genuinely enjoyed by performers and audiences alike. at worse scat is something to be survived or endured!

imv scat is often discussed totally out of context....a sort of 'necessity' of acceptable convention.

since scat singing became the domain mainly of women singers, scat becomes a problem, an issue, a common stumbling block for otherwise devoted listeners, as well as problematic in other contexts relating to gender politics. ...rather that scat perhaps was originally meant and intended as a sort of ad hoc collaboration, received, and valued as a spontaneous deviation from the written word, (or 'handed down' song narratives respectively). singers were already imitating musical instruments ...so to scat is a development of this (wordfree) occupation.

i imagine scat was originally useful when a few bars of dramatic license might have been thoroughly welcomed, for instance as 'cheeky innuendo' added in to the lyrics of jazz standards, where lyrics were often strong on double entendre. for instance wit, and ingenuity that a small, friendly, trusted audience might well thoroughly approve of, genuinely enjoy, and as a means to unite people via any additional sentiments expressed through scat. perhaps scat might have originally been useful as a way of singing about the unspeakable? rather as 'jive talk' was useful as 'a secret language'?

scat is a typical jazz convention, amongst a myriad of other tricks relating to public performance, designed to entertain primarily ....but my point is that what works in one context doesn't necessarily translate in others, which imo is precisely why scat can sound dated, and corny.....when scat sounds 'obligatory', typically forced - it sounds like 'risk taking' of the wrong sort ... it dashes our hopes about spontaneity, invention, and authenticity eg someone 'going through the motions' as opposed to being 'daring and provocative' with song lyrics. if someone requires spontaneity, authenticity and daring from their jazz, (rather than a polished performance in terms of a predictable, well rehearsed one)......... corny, tacky, robotic-sounding renditions are hardly going to be welcome. older generations of jazz listeners of the past, well rehearsed in what i call the 'smile and nod' school of l appreciation of convention, often refuse to see the pitfalls of scat. they perhaps feel they are being 'untrue' to their chosen idols, which is touching ...but ultimately damaging to the image of women in jazz in particular. therefore, a proper discussion of scat is often hard to find. but then a protective approach is understandable when criticism is trite ...ie scat is for 'when the singer's forgotten the lyrics'. a popular criticism which nevertheless doesn't really cut the mustard imo... not in expressing what's might really be wrong with some scat performances.

another distinct drawback is that scat is often associated with the comodification, world wide popularity of a minority of women jazz stars shifting vast units of record sales, from an era when overtly dazzling 'evening dress' was almost as much a part of jazz convention, amongst women performers, as the singing itself. all popularised music forms can quickly become a battle of style over content....and unfortunately just the (tacky) oufit can be perceived to suffice as 'jazz'! rather like a neon hoarding can suffice in representing new york, or las vegas, despite the fact that neon signs themselves (no matter how dazzling), actually have no more depth than a spaghetti western set! a notoriously bizzarre style of dress, coupled with an unconvincing scat are perhaps an unfortunate 'legacy', a bygone trade mark of 'professionality' that lives on, even into the 21st c, despite original generations of fans being long gone. ultimately, i guess there's typically a very fine line between music professionals 'getting paid in full' and being perennially authentic, as in 'cheeky, spontaneous and inventive'? perhaps brass players have it easy - in comparison to jazz singers in this sense! a new convention might be introduced, where, as a standard part of every gig, players are required to perform the alphabet with their instruments ....as a necessary 'equaliser'! (though i am just jesting.....of course)!

[Serial_Apologist]

fwiw my opinion is that your response suggests that you prefer your jazz sounding authentic primarily elmo. If ever you wanted to reinforce a non believers belief that Jazz is a spent force then this would do it. is so true ....unfortunately.

my own theory is that scat was a convention linking back to the practicalities of jazz (and blues) as 'home entertainment' or small club/church house venues, rather than to show biz and scat performance on eg broadway or carnegie hall for example. someone of the status of ella fitzgerald typically played huge venues, where tickets were expensive, and audiences felt that for the money all they need do was sit back, 'be entertained' by their favourite star performers. whereas perhaps originally, dramatic license, deviations from a lyric narrative, actually relied on those not scatting being supportive, ie sort of willing, or daring the scatter? perhaps scat also relied on audiences not being as passive, but buoyant, expectant and participant too? raucous even!! what might be required to scat successfully aren't necessarily risks that are going to be taken at a prestigious venue, where fellow performers are hoping to return....! consequently, scat can often sound like 'something to be stomached' as convention...rather than genuinely enjoyed by performers and audiences alike. at worse scat is something to be survived or endured!

imv scat is often discussed totally out of context....a sort of 'necessity' of acceptable convention.

since scat singing became the domain mainly of women singers, scat becomes a problem, an issue, a common stumbling block for otherwise devoted listeners, as well as problematic in other contexts relating to gender politics. ...rather that scat perhaps was originally meant and intended as a sort of ad hoc collaboration, received, and valued as a spontaneous deviation from the written word, (or 'handed down' song narratives respectively). singers were already imitating musical instruments ...so to scat is a development of this (wordfree) occupation.

i imagine scat was originally useful when a few bars of dramatic license might have been thoroughly welcomed, for instance as 'cheeky innuendo' added in to the lyrics of jazz standards, where lyrics were often strong on double entendre. for instance wit, and ingenuity that a small, friendly, trusted audience might well thoroughly approve of, genuinely enjoy, and as a means to unite people via any additional sentiments expressed through scat. perhaps scat might have originally been useful as a way of singing about the unspeakable? rather as 'jive talk' was useful as 'a secret language'?

scat is a typical jazz convention, amongst a myriad of other tricks relating to public performance, designed to entertain primarily ....but my point is that what works in one context doesn't necessarily translate in others, which imo is precisely why scat can sound dated, and corny.....when scat sounds 'obligatory', typically forced - it sounds like 'risk taking' of the wrong sort ... it dashes our hopes about spontaneity, invention, and authenticity eg someone 'going through the motions' as opposed to being 'daring and provocative' with song lyrics. if someone requires spontaneity, authenticity and daring from their jazz, (rather than a polished performance in terms of a predictable, well rehearsed one)......... corny, tacky, robotic-sounding renditions are hardly going to be welcome. older generations of jazz listeners of the past, well rehearsed in what i call the 'smile and nod' school of l appreciation of convention, often refuse to see the pitfalls of scat. they perhaps feel they are being 'untrue' to their chosen idols, which is touching ...but ultimately damaging to the image of women in jazz in particular. therefore, a proper discussion of scat is often hard to find. but then a protective approach is understandable when criticism is trite ...ie scat is for 'when the singer's forgotten the lyrics'. a popular criticism which nevertheless doesn't really cut the mustard imo... not in expressing what's might really be wrong with some scat performances.

another distinct drawback is that scat is often associated with the comodification, world wide popularity of a minority of women jazz stars shifting vast units of record sales, from an era when overtly dazzling 'evening dress' was almost as much a part of jazz convention, amongst women performers, as the singing itself. all popularised music forms can quickly become a battle of style over content....and unfortunately just the (tacky) oufit can be perceived to suffice as 'jazz'! rather like a neon hoarding can suffice in representing new york, or las vegas, despite the fact that neon signs themselves (no matter how dazzling), actually have no more depth than a spaghetti western set! a notoriously bizzarre style of dress, coupled with an unconvincing scat are perhaps an unfortunate 'legacy', a bygone trade mark of 'professionality' that lives on, even into the 21st c, despite original generations of fans being long gone. ultimately, i guess there's typically a very fine line between music professionals 'getting paid in full' and being perennially authentic, as in 'cheeky, spontaneous and inventive'? perhaps brass players have it easy - in comparison to jazz singers in this sense! a new convention might be introduced, where, as a standard part of every gig, players are required to perform the alphabet with their instruments ....as a necessary 'equaliser'! (though i am just jesting.....of course)!

Legend of course has it that scat originated when Louis forgot his lines during a concert or recording, but as you say it' obviously more compicated than that.

I have a great cartoon among my copious collection, from Punch 1964, of two guys listening to a recording of Armstrong. The one beckons the other over to the giant speaker mounted on his wall, telling him, "If you listen very carefully to this passage, you can just hear Louis dropping his handkerchief".

[Ian Thumwood]

I feel it is a bit sad to be criticising Ella Fitzgerald who was as about as perfect as a singer can get.

The funny thing with this scat singing topic is that so much of the references on this thread relate to earlier singers whereas there are plenty of singers who still do this today albeit in today's idiom. I can think of many examples as wide ranging as Kurt Elling, Gretchen Parlato and Lucian Souza who each have pretty unique ways of scat singing without reference to Ella.

In a pure jazz context, I always felt that Betty Carter had this totally sown up. For me, she was the John Coltrane of jazz vocals and proabably the most "Orthodox" of all jazz singers. i.e. There could be no doubt that she was singer jazz - someone who would easily pass the Trevor Cooper test, so to speak.

However, I think there is one singer who is capable of destroying most instrumentalists in her outrageously swinging efforts at scat singing who has been ignored in this threadd. Small wonder that she enjoys a reputation as one of the most exciting live acts on the jazz circuit. Nice to be able to find the track on Youtube which I hear Humphrey Lyttelton play on his programme around 1983 and which knocked me out more than almost anything else I have ever encountered for the first time it was played. At the time, I was still heavily into big band jazz, Coleman Hawkins and Thelonious Monk. Prior to this, Lee Morgan's "Sidewinder" had been the big discovery for me. The contemporary scene was very much a mystery and I was totally bowled over when I heard this record. I would still argue that this is one of th most exciting live jazz performances I have heard and I practically wore my copy out during the the summer holiday. I think my parents most have been driven to distraction and I used to have debates with my Dad as to whether ot ot this was jazz. Well, it definitely is ! This is the track that really blew me away and it remains a tour-de-force of scat singing. Tania Maria also provides the punchy piano solos and the popping bass line also caught my ear. Her live perfrormance of "Yatra-ta" is a desrt island disc if ever there was one. Never managed to work out what the title mean't though!:-

Tania Maria probably remains one of the few greats in jazz that I have yet to see perform live. An amazing artist, in my opinion.

[Serial_Apologist]

I feel it is a bit sad to be criticising Ella Fitzgerald who was as about as perfect as a singer can get.

The funny thing with this scat singing topic is that so much of the references on this thread relate to earlier singers whereas there are plenty of singers who still do this today albeit in today's idiom. I can think of many examples as wide ranging as Kurt Elling, Gretchen Parlato and Lucian Souza who each have pretty unique ways of scat singing without reference to Ella.

In a pure jazz context, I always felt that Betty Carter had this totally sown up. For me, she was the John Coltrane of jazz vocals and proabably the most "Orthodox" of all jazz singers. i.e. There could be no doubt that she was singer jazz - someone who would easily pass the Trevor Cooper test, so to speak.

However, I think there is one singer who is capable of destroying most instrumentalists in her outrageously swinging efforts at scat singing who has been ignored in this threadd. Small wonder that she enjoys a reputation as one of the most exciting live acts on the jazz circuit. Nice to be able to find the track on Youtube which I hear Humphrey Lyttelton play on his programme around 1983 and which knocked me out more than almost anything else I have ever encountered for the first time it was played. At the time, I was still heavily into big band jazz, Coleman Hawkins and Thelonious Monk. Prior to this, Lee Morgan's "Sidewinder" had been the big discovery for me. The contemporary scene was very much a mystery and I was totally bowled over when I heard this record. I would still argue that this is one of th most exciting live jazz performances I have heard and I practically wore my copy out during the the summer holiday. I think my parents most have been driven to distraction and I used to have debates with my Dad as to whether ot ot this was jazz. Well, it definitely is ! This is the track that really blew me away and it remains a tour-de-force of scat singing. Tania Maria also provides the punchy piano solos and the popping bass line also caught my ear. Her live perfrormance of "Yatra-ta" is a desrt island disc if ever there was one. Never managed to work out what the title mean't though!:-



Tania Maria probably remains one of the few greats in jazz that I have yet to see perform live. An amazing artist, in my opinion.

Not sure she's actually improvising there, Ian...

This lady definitely is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-6xw7vIrik&feature=related

or, if that's too fusioney, here she's being her own walkperson:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J4VHW7SKirg

Not scat, just two people I'm very fond of, one platonically more than the other

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRZ3ePhHUug

[Ian Thumwood]

S-A

Tania Maria is definitely improvising. There is no doubt that what she is producing is extremely high calibre jazz.
I think she is probably one of the greatest jazz singers of the last thirty years.

Try this track which builds up an amazing head of steam. Shame this is now only available as a SACD whcih, i suppose, can't be played on a normal CD player. Once the band kick in, the tune thunders along. There is a bit of multi-tracking on this disc and she is effectively dueting with herself .

I've seen the Polish singer with the Vienna Art Orchestra several years back and am curious that you conside Christine Tobin to be a jazz singer - I'm more inclined to think of her as a singer who works with jazz musicians very much in the fashion of Joni Mitchell. Neither of these singers are as convincing as jazz musicians as Tania Maria in my opinion. I think the difference is that TM has never forgotten than dance is the inspiration for jazz (especially from a historic persepctive) and this is why her music is always enthused with so much energy. If anything, she gets right down into the spirit of what a jazz artist should be - spontaneous , creative and also inspire the listener. Tobin is too inclined towards folk and , to my ears, neither her voice nor Dudziak's is as good a musical instrument as the Brazilians.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

..er no crit of Ella by me intended, just think that GS was caosting that prog .... the Horace Silver was better