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  • Ian Thumwood
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 4164

    #16
    Enjoyed that track!

    The notion of Trad v Modern never had any legs for the simple fact that the "new" quickly became the "old." Even in the heyday of Bop, there were so many musicians that straddle idioms such as Coleman Hawkins, that the notion was never correct. I can understand people feeling that there was a polar divide in the early fifties but the same people probably failed to recognise that the divide was no-less great with what how developed in the 60's when the gulf with the boppers became even greater in my opinion.

    Despite the above, I have to argue with the any defence on Trevor's behalf. He was the ultimate pub bore and whilst I applaud his loyalty to some musicians like Pay Smythe who desired greatest recognition, it is also worthwhile that he also championed the likes of Allen Eager who probably did not merit the purple prose written about him. Also worth noting that Trevor was critical of musicians like Alan Barnes or guy Barker who investigated styles more in the jazz tradition whilst lauding the likes of Steve Waterman for the same thing! I never felt he was consistent. He also tended to make reference to the likes of Cliff Richard which seemed to be prompted by his own hysteria and had nothing to do with the world of jazz. In fact, he seemed totally divorced to what the current jazz scene was about and unaware of almost everything that was going on across the Atlantic. As for contemporary jazz, he had no interest beyond Be-bop and even the likes of 'Trane and later Miles were well beyond him. The most intriguing thing i found was that despite his obvious passion, he seldom if ever went to hear live gigs and most of the concerts he mentioned attending must have been in the 50's and 60's. For me, Trevor wasn't a jazz fan, but a fan of jazz records. Glad to see the back of him.

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    • burning dog
      Full Member
      • Dec 2010
      • 1510

      #17
      In the British Jazz "wars" Trad v Modern was not bebop versus the rest it was at it's most extreme (in the early years) revivalism for a pre Armstrong kind of "pure" jazz. Hawkins, Webster, Lester Duke and Count would have been modernists to them as would ALL big band music, of course it didnt have any kind of legs as a rational theory.

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      • aka Calum Da Jazbo
        Late member
        • Nov 2010
        • 9173

        #18
        and Ian stop abusing people in their absence it is unbecoming to da bored's cool mate ...
        According to the best estimates of astronomers there are at least one hundred billion galaxies in the observable universe.

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        • aka Calum Da Jazbo
          Late member
          • Nov 2010
          • 9173

          #19
          or in their presence ...


          this clip shows another side of legacy ... these masters are still playing bop into their fifties and have technique, subtlety, edge that makes them convincing for me ... they are not trying to refashion an earlier style, but playing their own music at age fifty not twenty something ....



          especially James Moody!
          According to the best estimates of astronomers there are at least one hundred billion galaxies in the observable universe.

          Comment

          • Ian Thumwood
            Full Member
            • Dec 2010
            • 4164

            #20
            Calum

            I have to storngly disagree with you on this one. My issue is that you shouldn't come to any art with closed ears or eyes or even pre-conceived notions. If you love jazz, you try to embrace as much as possible or atleast make an effort to understand it. As I explained earlier, everything has in antecedents somewhere and is connected to other things which subsequently take their cues from it. The whole idea of the messageboard was to express enthusiasm for things and, from my perspective atleast, I use this board to enjoy amicable discussions with people i consider to be friends and to have my ears opened to explore other things I might not have been aware of. I can safely say that this message board has broadened by horizons with jazz in a fashion that has been unprecedented since one of my good friends introduced me to Gil Evans, Miles and Bill Evans when I was a teenager obsessed with Coleman Hawkins. For me, TC's position was wholly in contrast with the whole "open-minded" spirit of jazz. He expressed a narrow-minded perception of what or wasn't "good" jazz or even "jazz" at all that was at best out-dated and at worse pretty offensive. My experience amongst the jazz audience is that people generally have their pet loves but , by and large, share an enthusiasm to explore and to listen to a wide range of music, not just jazz. If you want to be hyper critical, the position he took was almost a form of apartheid where the parameters of what was acceptable was defined by approximately 20 years of the 100 years worth of jazz. I'm sorry to differ on this one but I feel TC 's opinions swam in totally the opposite direction and sympathies with the majority of people I know you love the music. I didn't like the fashion that he "victimised" particular musicians , especially because his criticism was so arbitary. He used his authority on the British jazz scene of 50's / 60's to gain kudos whereas outside of his field, he displayed ignorance of the wider spectrum. Also worth bearing in mind that his use of this messgaeboard to air doemstic grievances was unacceptable. Personally, I find it difficult to condone the position TC took albeit it is clear that the majority here are sympathetic. Granted that the likes of king Kennytone and Mr Improv could be similarly fixated but at least they were quite malleable if you could a reasonable argument to them. I've never encountered anyone else with his narrow-mindedness in listening to jazz for thirty years. It's staggering that so many on this board find things to admire about him.

            Comment

            • aka Calum Da Jazbo
              Late member
              • Nov 2010
              • 9173

              #21
              i dont much care Ian; you both reran those arguments in the past ..... Trevor is not here to respond [ and i know he could really lose it ] let absent friends lie eh ...
              According to the best estimates of astronomers there are at least one hundred billion galaxies in the observable universe.

              Comment

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