Jazz Criticism…a criticism…

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  • Ian Thumwood
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 4165

    #16
    Anyone remember the JazzFM magazine that came out around 1990? I used to get this when it first came out and quite enjoyed it. I can also remember buying a really obscure Irish magazine at Mole Jazz once as it had an interview with Bill Frisell in it. There was an editorial regarding an album by Brazilian percussionist Nana Vasconcelos which was shocking in the extent of the racist tone which would have been more typical of something produced in 1930's. Amazingly poor.

    The problem with a lot of British and European jazz magazines is that they are so parochial. I have bought "Downbeat" on a few occasions and have been given copies of other American magazines like "Jazz News" which are more in line with the types of publications you get over here. Downbeat was been a real eye-opener insofar that the journalists are pretty much on the pulse with the music whereas magazines like "jazzwise" are on off-shoot of a muisc-publishing business and their coverage is governed very much by new CD releases or tours. I always felt that "Downbeat" was a magazine which had the respect of musicians whereas something like the "Wire" tried to define who was "hot or not." It was once described to me by a British musician I met on a music course as being run by people who were w****rs who made life even more difficult for professional musicians. This ties in with my comment about possible legal action by critics and the care needed to comment reasonably and without prejudicing someone's career. In contrast, the questions in "Downbeat" that are posed to the musicians are intriguing and the debate is far wider than the Marsalis v New jazz that seems to pre-occupy "Jazzwise." I don't know whether this magazine has changed much since I last read it, but it did seem much more informed that UK magazines and less inclined to over-praise the modish. I always felt that it was a bit like "Jazz Hot" insofar that it had a history and place in the culture of the music that it looked to maintain and therefore tended to have a closer connection to the music as opposed to the "product." Difficult to find anything in "Jazzwise" that isn't plugging something!


    Sometines both "JJI" and "Wire" had an axe to grind and probably the reviews were not written without a great deal of care. "JJI" always seemed to cater for the Trevor Cooper's of this world (and probably his father too!!) and did champion some of the more obscure Be-bop / mainstream players. However, I think this policy left if without a younger readership and was ultimately a bit short-sighted. Steve Voce's editorial also seemed to disappear off on funny tangents. I must admit that come of the record reviews in "Wire" did not even discuss the music on the record but would make reference to other musicians / influences so as to leave you with little idea what the music was actually like. I must admit, although I enjoyed it at the time, I wouldn't like that kind of journalism nowadays. I would love to dig some of the old copies out one day and see just how accurate the "Wire" was at predicting what the better albums were. Seem to recall that the "Top Twenty" albums of the 80's included Miles' "You're under arrest" which now sound pretty dated to say the least! With contemporary magazines like "Jazzwise", there is the same problem with looking at the music from a UK perspective and a tendency to over-praise bands like EST. I haven't read this magazine for ages and don't know if it has changed or whether is still looks to the next big sea-change in the music.

    Comment

    • Serial_Apologist
      Full Member
      • Dec 2010
      • 37637

      #17
      Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post
      Anyone remember the JazzFM magazine that came out around 1990? I used to get this when it first came out and quite enjoyed it. I can also remember buying a really obscure Irish magazine at Mole Jazz once as it had an interview with Bill Frisell in it. There was an editorial regarding an album by Brazilian percussionist Nana Vasconcelos which was shocking in the extent of the racist tone which would have been more typical of something produced in 1930's. Amazingly poor.

      The problem with a lot of British and European jazz magazines is that they are so parochial. I have bought "Downbeat" on a few occasions and have been given copies of other American magazines like "Jazz News" which are more in line with the types of publications you get over here. Downbeat was been a real eye-opener insofar that the journalists are pretty much on the pulse with the music whereas magazines like "jazzwise" are on off-shoot of a muisc-publishing business and their coverage is governed very much by new CD releases or tours. I always felt that "Downbeat" was a magazine which had the respect of musicians whereas something like the "Wire" tried to define who was "hot or not." It was once described to me by a British musician I met on a music course as being run by people who were w****rs who made life even more difficult for professional musicians. This ties in with my comment about possible legal action by critics and the care needed to comment reasonably and without prejudicing someone's career. In contrast, the questions in "Downbeat" that are posed to the musicians are intriguing and the debate is far wider than the Marsalis v New jazz that seems to pre-occupy "Jazzwise." I don't know whether this magazine has changed much since I last read it, but it did seem much more informed that UK magazines and less inclined to over-praise the modish. I always felt that it was a bit like "Jazz Hot" insofar that it had a history and place in the culture of the music that it looked to maintain and therefore tended to have a closer connection to the music as opposed to the "product." Difficult to find anything in "Jazzwise" that isn't plugging something!


      Sometines both "JJI" and "Wire" had an axe to grind and probably the reviews were not written without a great deal of care. "JJI" always seemed to cater for the Trevor Cooper's of this world (and probably his father too!!) and did champion some of the more obscure Be-bop / mainstream players. However, I think this policy left if without a younger readership and was ultimately a bit short-sighted. Steve Voce's editorial also seemed to disappear off on funny tangents. I must admit that come of the record reviews in "Wire" did not even discuss the music on the record but would make reference to other musicians / influences so as to leave you with little idea what the music was actually like. I must admit, although I enjoyed it at the time, I wouldn't like that kind of journalism nowadays. I would love to dig some of the old copies out one day and see just how accurate the "Wire" was at predicting what the better albums were. Seem to recall that the "Top Twenty" albums of the 80's included Miles' "You're under arrest" which now sound pretty dated to say the least! With contemporary magazines like "Jazzwise", there is the same problem with looking at the music from a UK perspective and a tendency to over-praise bands like EST. I haven't read this magazine for ages and don't know if it has changed or whether is still looks to the next big sea-change in the music.
      Ian, if you're ever up this way with time to spare, I have all the Wires while it was still mainly covering jazz and other periodicals from before and since.

      S-A

      Comment

      • BLUESNIK'S REVOX
        Full Member
        • Dec 2010
        • 4280

        #18
        ALYN S.."BN, I hope you would exempt Jazz Library from this. The programme aims to be critical but enthusiastic about the subjects' music. Furthermore, I suspect you might not be a regular reader of the Times..."

        Alyn, absolutely. Your Library progs are ones I constantly go back to, full of stimulus and insight, even when I "think" I know the work. As to the Times, Wapping. There is a more general issue here about artistic blandness and hyping the product, and I suspect (often) in John Fordham's case, a realisation that making a living in this music is tough enough, with the CD as a prime marketing device, hence the need to soften critical blows.

        I am not advocating mindless criticism for the sake of it. The (very) old Jazz Journal had one - "a semi pro musician so I know what I'm talking about" -sic - who accused Elmo Hope of having ten thumbs and Sonny Rollins of "playing all over the place" - spare us that back bar drivel, but surely some kind of INFORMED crticiam is called from from ... self styled critics?

        BN.

        I find often myself disagreeing with some of the Cook/Morton judgements (generational?) but at least they give considered reasons for them to be accepted or rejected. It really can't all be "great". As I get still older (Oh no), I realise how much fk/g dross this world produces...and that's just the Guardian commentariat.

        Comment

        • BLUESNIK'S REVOX
          Full Member
          • Dec 2010
          • 4280

          #19
          BTW. Kenny Dorham used to review records for Downbeat in the '60s. A way of getting him some much need subsidy. But he was so critical that he was forced to drop it!

          BN.

          Comment

          • BLUESNIK'S REVOX
            Full Member
            • Dec 2010
            • 4280

            #20
            "Downbeat continued to attract the finest writers. Gold had brought in Don Henahan, who later went on to become first-string classical critic for The New York Times. And Martin Williams had come to the magazine on Nat Hentoff's suggestion in the late fifties. But DeMicheal became the first to lure such prominent working musicians as Marian McPartland and Kenny Dorham to Downbeat as regular record reviewers -at $5 a review.

            THAT MUCH!

            BN.

            Comment

            • aka Calum Da Jazbo
              Late member
              • Nov 2010
              • 9173

              #21
              well El Senor the filthy capitalists paid me £6 a week to work in their retail emporium in 1961 ... you are right that much wow!
              According to the best estimates of astronomers there are at least one hundred billion galaxies in the observable universe.

              Comment

              • Serial_Apologist
                Full Member
                • Dec 2010
                • 37637

                #22
                Originally posted by aka Calum Da Jazbo View Post
                well El Senor the filthy capitalists paid me £6 a week to work in their retail emporium in 1961 ... you are right that much wow!
                SIX POUNDS???

                Now when I were a... (Contd. P 789)

                Comment

                • aka Calum Da Jazbo
                  Late member
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 9173

                  #23
                  yep suit change and a night out etc ..............

                  speaking yesterday to two younger persons working their Sunday shift in a fashion outlet [if such may be said to exist in Melton Mowbray] the subject of 'duffel coats' arose .... these items were as definitive a statement of aesthetic choice in jazz as the italian mohair suits and sharp shoes .... and the emerging jeans and t shirts of the beats welcoming the new sounds of the sixties in jazz ....

                  incidentally i bought me first hoodie yesterday .... layered man layered .... just like Trane eh ............

                  so i take el Senor to be saying that jazz critics are now predominantly dressing in the style of R1 DJs in the early 70s ...... ab fab etc ....



                  payola! who said that ...................
                  According to the best estimates of astronomers there are at least one hundred billion galaxies in the observable universe.

                  Comment

                  • Jazzrook
                    Full Member
                    • Mar 2011
                    • 3071

                    #24
                    Originally posted by BLUESNIK'S REVOX View Post
                    Listening to Jamie C. this week on R2, where every track played is “amazing, superb, brilliant, outstanding” (ohhhh really?) and reading John Fordham’s reviews in the Guardian, with nothing less than three stars even if its matt paint drying (esp BRITISH matt paint drying), what has happened to Jazz critiquing? Hump in his R2 slot regularly slagged off some of the music he played – I happily remember a scathing remark about Bobby Watson playing Chelsea Bridge…

                    Has jazz now reached a level of competence and facility that everything melds in one? Where’s the REAL effort? Where’s the edge?

                    Where ‘s my wine.

                    BN.
                    Bluesnik ~ I usually give Jamie Cullum's programme a wide berth but agree with your comments about the current low level of jazz criticism on radio and elsewhere.
                    For me, Charles Fox was the doyen of jazz radio critics and his long-running 'Jazz Today' programme(which was axed by Radio 3) has never been bettered IMO.
                    Also admired the perceptive jazz reviews & articles of Jack Cooke(Jazz Monthly & Jazz Review). Not forgetting Richard Cook & Brian Morton of the monumental 'Penguin Guide'.

                    Comment

                    • BLUESNIK'S REVOX
                      Full Member
                      • Dec 2010
                      • 4280

                      #25
                      Calum - I remember earning c.£20/wk as a trainee architect in 1965? Thought I’d cracked it, NEVER been so well off…wk/end trips to Ronnies, Austin Reed button downs, tonic mohair/raised seams , levver coats cheap down the market…well it beats “work experience”/slavery for kids today chez Tesco.

                      JRook - Agree with you. Cooke, Max Harrison, Charles Fox etc. etc. Jazz Monthly with those long essays on Art Pepper, Kokomo Arnold, Anarchism …and Elmo! I had a book years ago of the “best fifty modern jazz records” (or similar) by them. Invaluable and long lost.

                      I was re-reading “Flaubert’s Parrot” last night (Well, it was Monday in Wales) and Julian Barnes’ narrator states his hatred of critics as “not so much failed artists but more failed critics” and “the elevation of the average so that the critic can then demonstrate his/her further refinement” . I misquote but that’s the gist.

                      Didn’t Rimbaud say that the critic “rides in the dung cart of progress pointing out which way the horse has gone”? Or was that Johnny Morris?

                      BN.

                      Comment

                      • handsomefortune

                        #26
                        Didn’t Rimbaud say that the critic “rides in the dung cart of progress pointing out which way the horse has gone”? Or was that Johnny Morris?

                        Comment

                        • aka Calum Da Jazbo
                          Late member
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 9173

                          #27
                          oh Austin Reed button downs and knitted black ties! and in '65 '66 madras cotton jackets El Senor!

                          i think that currently in UK no one is doing the job in the way of those hallowed names or in the way of a Giddens or a Williams; informed, analytic and critical .... jazz may be slipping down the agenda but what it does not need is the sycophantic puffery that El Senor Blues draws to our attention ... good bit of controversy stir things up a bit ... bit of stir gets you up the agenda and moves the dung onwards ..... suggestions for moving the dung?
                          According to the best estimates of astronomers there are at least one hundred billion galaxies in the observable universe.

                          Comment

                          • Alyn_Shipton
                            Full Member
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 774

                            #28
                            I beg to differ slightly. I'm not sure all those hallowed names mentioned above were quite so special. Martin Williams, for instance, good writer, but definitely a man of enormous critical prejudice as evidenced by his selection for the original Smithsonian Anthology. Max Harrison, often extremely perceptive, but definitely carried around his personal soapboxes (even to the point of his deliberate mis-spellings, eg "Chew" Berry). Max was very supportive of me in my early days as a writer, but he was sure that his views were "right". And Charles Fox, lovely man, and a good friend, but who never actually wrote the book (or maybe books) that he might have - if only he'd expanded on Jazz In Perspective or his essay on Max Roach in that Channel 4 anthology. It's always been rare to find jazz writers and critics of real quality - but I'd suggest that the net and fewer national boundaries on publication mean that the likes of Giddens, Nate Chinen, Ashley Kahn, Paul Berliner, Robert O'Meally, Brent Edwards, Robert Walser et al are international level critics, writing as well as ever in the music's history. And once you add the French, men like Laurent deWilde (excellent broadcast a couple of weeks ago on Radio France about Hank Jones, and a fine biography of Monk) or Ludovic Tournès, and other European writers like Walter Van De Leur, who combines his scholarship (eg the Strayhorn book) with live musical projects, I think jazz criticism is definitely healthier than it has been before.

                            Comment

                            • aka Calum Da Jazbo
                              Late member
                              • Nov 2010
                              • 9173

                              #29
                              er Alyn when i posted that no one in the Uk etc it was foremost in my mind that you live in France .... ahem ...

                              According to the best estimates of astronomers there are at least one hundred billion galaxies in the observable universe.

                              Comment

                              • BLUESNIK'S REVOX
                                Full Member
                                • Dec 2010
                                • 4280

                                #30
                                AS... "And Charles Fox, lovely man, and a good friend, but who never actually wrote the book (or maybe books) that he might have - if only he'd expanded on Jazz In Perspective"

                                AGREE totally with that and maybe I am looking back with a litre of rose colour but in retrospect (and again a lot of this was the '60s when, as Calum says, jazz wars were fought, "Isims" were foremost), there did seem to be depth and edge. The music does not exist in isolation.

                                Does a debased and gutless political climate produce dumb cultual criticism?

                                Does braad get buttered? Discuss.

                                BN.

                                Do artists themselves produce the best critiques? One of the best things on late Coltrane I've read was a long essay by Evan Parker. Coltrane himself talking about Monk was fascinating.

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