i thought i saw a trailer ....

[Serial_Apologist]

one thing I loathed about the 80s "jazz revival" was how derivative a lot of the playing was.

One particular instance that had me storming out of a performance at an Outside In Festival in utter disgust was of the leader of a particular group titled Gang of 3 performing "Giant Steps". In his version he played the tune on tenor, followed by 'Trane's 1959 solo, unaccompaned, transcribed with note-perfect accuracy and played at the correct tempo, followed by several choruses on the changes AT DOUBLE THE SPEED OF THE ORIGINAL, followed (iirc) by the original solo, again unnaccompanied and at original speed, and then the tune by the trio.

To "do Coltrane" you have to go the whole hog, imv, and the main problem with the Coltrane clones was that they nearly all fought shy of the post Love Supreme stuff that some of the sixties generation started bravely taking on board while Trane was still alive: eg Alan Skidmore, John Surman, Evan Parker.

Mark Lockheart, Iain Ballamy, Steve Buckley, Tim Whitehead, Andy Sheppard and Ed Jones are straightish ahead players from the 1980s who imv took Coltrane sucessfully on board by leavening the Trane approach as one of several (including Wayne Shorter and Joe Henderson). I don't think the influence of Mike Brecker has altogether been healthy on younger tenor players, it tends to formularize their playing.

S-A

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

... i watched the re-show of the Pannonica Rothschild film by her great niece ...... an amazing friend to Thelonious and his genius and how needed in the USA of segregation and Electro Convulsive Therapy [lobotomy on the mains] ..... both Monk and Ornette [in that doc on 1959] were wonderful to see as living and breathing people not icons ....

the commentary in the 1959 doc was naff in the extreme which is a great shame because it pretty much ruined a great idea and some good film ....... trust Some Thin Else to get it wrong just like that eh ...

[Ian Thumwood]

SA

I really can't agree with your statement about Mike Brecker not being healthy on a younger generation of players. In fact, I feel that his approach to jazz definately widened the possibilities and you can definitely discern his influence on a player like DOnny McCaslin who, along with several other notable players, has re-vitalised the jazz scene in the last decade. Can't see much of Coltrane in Ballamy's playing at all and someone like Andy Sheppard definately sounds like his has taken his cures from the likes of Jan Garbarek these days. (A far cry from when I first heard him in an "Energy music" quartet in 1985. Never really made up my mind about Andy Sheppard although I feel that Carla Bley has managed to conjure the very best out of him in her bands.

For me, jazz exausted a lot of it's possibilities by the end of the 60's and the generation that followed immediately on from Coltrane left jazz looking for newer ways to express itself. It was precisely those harmonically engaged musicians like Joe Henderson, Brecker, Lovano and Dave Leibman who have pushed open the door for the next generation of soloists. I think that once jazz had escaped the New-Neo realms in the 1980's, people were seriously exploring very valid ways of expressing themselves which took on board the work of masters from Rollins' generation but re-cast the music in a more modern harmonic language. Alot of the better jazz played today is wholly original and sounds of our era as opposed to the 1960's which seemed the objective of some of the earnest solosist who emerged with Wynton . That said, these players are now middle aged (Marsalis is 50) and I think there is alot of maturity in their player than never existed in the 1980's. Branford gets a bit of a kick in on this board but his music is a prime example of someone taking their cures from an earlier type of jazz and revitalising it.

The point of my initial thread was that Rollins' approach to improvisation where ideas and stacked one upon the other seems more in keeping with jazz today than Coltranes' sheets of sounds. I think the difference is that today's player love to chop of the rhythm more (taking on board the lengendary Roy Haynes' comments in the documentary) and the groove has become more complex without losing the swing.

[Serial_Apologist]

SA

I really can't agree with your statement about Mike Brecker not being healthy on a younger generation of players.

We'll just have to disagree on that, Ian, but

taking their cures from an earlier type of jazz and revitalising it.

Double riposte to your, er, typo, Ian, which I couldn't resist ; knowing your views on 70s Fusion , here's one of my favourite albums of *said genre*:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9JvdWUh5RY

The point of my initial thread was that Rollins' approach to improvisation where ideas and stacked one upon the other seems more in keeping with jazz today than Coltranes' sheets of sounds. I think the difference is that today's player love to chop of the rhythm more (taking on board the lengendary Roy Haynes' comments in the documentary) and the groove has become more complex without losing the swing.

Largely agree with all that.

S-A

[Ian Thumwood]

SA

the best thing about thaat record is the Chaffinch singing at the beginning!

Ian

[Serial_Apologist]

SA

the best thing about thaat record is the Chaffinch singing at the beginning!

Ian

Oh come on Ian! "Squarer for Maud" -

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

I think its well past time that Sonny Rollins hung up his (fat) horn and let young people (with far more vivacious talent and stuff) earn a living on the jazzical stage. My youthful backing band, the New Bluesnikians, were all born after the death of Margaret Thatcher, and are really hip to the street beat of the Rap-ney Hackney ghetto..and R5 Live. They've even been in the GUARDIAN!

GET A BLOODY HAIRCUT, ROLLINS...it don't suit you.

BN (on behalf of the under 30s)

[Serial_Apologist]

I think its well past time that Sonny Rollins hung up his (fat) horn and let young people (with far more vivacious talent and stuff) earn a living on the jazzical stage. My youthful backing band, the New Bluesnikians, were all born after the death of Margaret Thatcher, and are really hip to the street beat of the Rap-ney Hackney ghetto..and R5 Live. They've even been in the GUARDIAN!

GET A BLOODY HAIRCUT, ROLLINS...it don't suit you.

BN (on behalf of the under 30s)

There's no such thing as sobriety.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

.....backing band el senor? you mean that you are still fronting the band on stage as in St Sonny not hanging his fat thing .... go to bed every one knows Marxist Leninist Taffology is tired .....

There's no such thing as sobriety.

er didn't Fat Chops Dave say that this weekend or am i dreaming again ....

[handsomefortune]

... i watched the re-show of the Pannonica Rothschild film by her great niece ...... an amazing friend to Thelonious and his genius and how needed in the USA of segregation and Electro Convulsive Therapy [lobotomy on the mains] ..... both Monk and Ornette [in that doc on 1959] were wonderful to see as living and breathing people not icons ....

the commentary in the 1959 doc was naff in the extreme which is a great shame because it pretty much ruined a great idea and some good film ....... trust Some Thin Else to get it wrong just like that eh ...

who could fail to be fascinated by this subject? thanks for the tip to watch calum da jazbo.

tbh i prefered the radio programme hannah did on the same subject - but every little helps, when the basic material is just so awesome initially.....consequently, i'd snap up pretty much any related media, regardless of quality. ('somethin else' apparently know this tendency already).

living and breathing people not icons ....

i loved seeing roy haynes too.....any streetscenes/clubs/etc from the past are always a plus too. like many, i'm a sucker like that.

but for me the 'sloppy bits', particularly over use of the same shot of the two together, tend to pointlessly interupt the listeners' imagination. whereas the r4 radio programme was extraordinarily powerful in a visual sense....(i hope the telly version doesn't make me forget the mental images stored in my brain from the radio version.....) that's the problem with 'chancing it' too much, because the history is such an eye opener, in its own right....over kill risks diluting something powerful.

however, i loved seeing pannonica's name sake moth, her letters, postcards, and paintings....nica clearly had some interesting girlfriends, as well as the jazz, n cats, n kids from her early marriage.

on the surface, hannah's rather sombre in comparison? but then, who wouldnt appear to be, in comparison with nica and pals and the times?

imv mr s rollins gets on peoples' nerves partly because of his long term over exposure. having been over exposed how do sr viewers claim compensation .... perhaps a voucher system might work!?

GET A BLOODY HAIRCUT, ROLLINS...it don't suit you.

bluesnik - what's wrong with his hair? i thought it was a good, versatile length, and well shaped beards are quite fashionable again. if rollins has to be over exposed, he might just have a bee hive next time we see him, it might just take the edge off any sense of over familiarity?

[Serial_Apologist]

bluesnik - what's wrong with his hair? i thought it was a good, versatile length,

Useful for storing spare reeds in, you mean?

[eighthobstruction]

Hey folks now you are talking my uninformed kinda language....

....sometimes a whole mob [exgirlfriends,friends, professional friends, hype friends,friends of the earth, friends of the elderly, people who might have been friends but had no idea I existed till that moment, friends inspired by my erudition [1] etc} come by to toadie up to me like Courteny and Soweto....

.....no documentary yet tho'

[handsomefortune]

no documentary yet tho'

i'm very much looking forward to it eigthobstruction!

[eighthobstruction]

It will be mostly about my relationship with the Love Horn....and how much I've got out of it over the years....

....Yes, I'll always be going up to that bridge, whipping my horn out of my box exposing it to elemental scrutiny....thinking....nice out isn't it.....

[Serial_Apologist]

It will be mostly about my relationship with the Love Horn....and how much I've got out of it over the years....

....

That's given me ideas for one based on the shoe horn. The horn to get them in here, and the "Shoo" to get rid of them at the end.