Jon3 4.x.11

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

Shabaka Hutchings features and a piece on the impact of minimalism [oxymoron eh] well at least on iPlayer you can skip the dross

[Serial_Apologist]

Shabaka Hutchings features and a piece on the impact of minimalism [oxymoron eh] well at least on iPlayer you can skip the dross

Ah yes - a must. I have a lot of time for Mr Hutchings - as does Paul Dunmall (****Dunmall alert****)

I seem to remember "systems music" was the term originally preferred by Riley, Reich et al - which I would go with, were it not for its unfortunate associations with serialism.

[charles t]

Serialist: I would like a more 'fleshed-out' version of your Dunmall alert...I, for example, have indundated a shelf or two with DUNS releases.

For minimalists/systems music'r's, a story:

During the opening of one of Steve Reich's pieces...18 Musicians...take your pick..., up in Boston,

a voice erupts from the balcony:

" ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!

I CONFESS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! "

[Quarky]

Shabaka Hutchings features and a piece on the impact of minimalism [oxymoron eh] well at least on iPlayer you can skip the dross

It's beeen a long time since I enjoyed so much a Jazz programme on Radio 3. It must have been a programme designed for listeners for whom Jazz is not their primary musical language. But it seemed to fit in easily with the general ethos of late night programmes on R3.

But Jazz freed from the shackles and chains of the rhythm section.

[Ian Thumwood]

But Jazz freed from the shackles and chains of the rhythm section.

This is a bold and intriguing statement that merits a response. Didn't hear the programme in question but I must admit finding Minimalism quite interesting although I am not quite convinced that it is "great" music. What makes it interesting is the energy and drive which propels the music along in a fashion that probably would not have been imaginable without jazz. The mixing up of rhythmic patterns and melodies which are effectively riffs owes a lot to jazz even if the appreciation is not necessarily reciprocal. The only examples that come to mind are Pat Metheny's collaboration with Steve Reich and a biting pastiche by Willem Breuker. Always wondered whether somene like Nik Bartsch's music sounded anything like minimalism although what little I've heard is pretty annodine.

The notion that a rhythm section should be some form of shackle or restriction is , at first, an anathma. Usually this has mean't the adsence of a drummer but I have heard groups who dispense with the bassist too. In practicality, the absence or presence of a "traditional" rhythm instrument shouldn't make much difference and I take that the quotation suggests some form of free approach to the music without a regular pulse. Personally, I have found it refreshing rehearsing with a trio that doesn't use a drummer but you are very reliant upon the bassist providing a regular groove to swing against. It is not necessarily more liberating than playing without a drummer as the bassist is more restricted in how they play without a drummer as there is generally a time-keepinmg / groove role in addition to anchoring the harmony to a note which has some relationship with the underlying harmony or substituted harmony. I would suggest that dispensing with the bassist insteas of the drummer would be far more liberating. (Check out the Coltrane live recording of "One up, one down" where the tenor battles in an amazing duo with Elvin Jones to see what I mean.)

From a Classical point of view, if you transpose a bass line and stick it in a formal, non-improvised context it could be construed as uninspiring - atleast with the kind of bass-lines that were being played up until he 1960's. I've been listening to Jason Moran's Bandwagon this week and this is a prime example of how liberating a bass and drums can be in the hands of Tarus Mateen and Nahseet Waits. This group typifies the feel of contemporary jazz and in a fashion that probably wasn't possible even 20 years ago. There is a version of a Jackie Byard tune on the latest record which is a hommage to 1930's stride piano initially before confidently romping away in a 4/4 swing feel . Then, all of a sudden, the beat is kicked away from underneath the band and it becomes impossible to work out where the one is. There are few bands who swing so hard without emphasizing the "one." This disc is fascinating in this respect albeit no substitute for hearing the band to this live. I've also heard Mateen and Waits do the same trick in a quartet led by exciting Logan Richardson where the pianist was "top bloke" Stanley Cowell - one of the nicest jazz musicians I've met.

I've always felt it odd how some musicians from the Imrpov community have a rather sniffy attitude to rhythm and the notion of swing and Oddball's quote very much reminded me of this. However, I have to say that a degree of "pulse," momentum, etc, etc is always an essential incredient within the music I like most and some improv sounds very much like cuting your nose off top soite your face in this respect. Whether it is King Oilver, Count Basie, Sonny Clark or Dave Holland, groove remains an integral part of jazz in my opinion and the great strength of the music is the variety of ways this has been expressed over the years. Whilst soloists like Sonny Rollins, Lee Konitz or any number of pianists and guitarists have managed to overcome the lack of a rhythm section, they all have an inner ear which allows them to play phrases which swing. By and large, i find few horn players interesting enough to want to hear them play solo or atleast without some instrument providing the harmony and a yardstick against which to throw out swinging phrases. Essentially, it is the vitality of jazz rhythm which has made is so compelling. I don't feel that the drums in jazz impede the music by any stretch of the imagination and would contest that the opposite is more often the case. The drums are one instrument where the levels of mastery in jazz are well in excess of any other form or stryle of music.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

the newsletter arrived today two days after broadcast still on iplayer

Shabaka Hutchings at the City of London Festival

Available on iPlayer until Monday 10 October


Here at Jazz On 3 we're already excited at the prospect of this November's London Jazz Festival, and this week journalist Kevin Le Gendre drops by for a preview which includes music from Henry Threadgill and Hermeto Pascoal, just two of the many big names who’ll be appearing. I'll also be letting you know about when to apply for tickets to our live festival launch show at Ronnie Scott's. I always say this, but, this year should be the best yet!

Composer Steve Reich turned 75 on Monday and we're wishing him many happy returns by investigating what impact minimalism has had on jazz. Find out what it means to play 'in the cloud', with The Necks' bassist Lloyd Swanton, composer/bandleader John Hollenbeck and this week's concert artist, Radio 3 new generation jazz artist Shabaka Hutchings.

Hutchings then takes to the stage with a band and set-list put together specially for this performance. His versatility is well documented but it really hits home in this concert that includes Gershwin and Ornette Coleman tunes alongside original material. He mainly plays clarinet rather than saxophone, oozing a delicate, at times unearthly finesse that's light years away from his recent Sons of Kemet appearance on Jazz on 3. In fact, the whole band, which includes laptop artist Leafcutter John and free improvisers John Edwards and Mark Sanders as well as pianist Kit Downes, are all more than capable of red-blooded improvisation. But they reveal a totally different side in this set, roaming freely in and around the music, but treading carefully all the while. Nowhere is this truer than in the third tune, Dusk - eerily beautiful, with the whole band revelling in the acoustic of the wonderfully named St Sepulchre-Without-Newgate church.

Jez





If you have comments about the show, or requests for music you’d like to hear, do get in touch at jazzon3@bbc.co.uk


Coming up:


10 October – A special programme uncovering the Warsaw jazz scene
17 October – Wayne Shorter and his quartet in a rare UK appearance
24 October – A concert by free improvisers Evan Parker and Louis Moholo
31 October – An exclusive session from Sid Peacock and his big band, Surge

Listen to Jazz on 3 for 7 days after broadcast

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006tt0y

... but if it is internet they are up against real competition from NPR videos and other streamed jazz ...

[Serial_Apologist]

This is a bold and intriguing statement that merits a response. Didn't hear the programme in question but I must admit finding Minimalism quite interesting although I am not quite convinced that it is "great" music. What makes it interesting is the energy and drive which propels the music along in a fashion that probably would not have been imaginable without jazz. The mixing up of rhythmic patterns and melodies which are effectively riffs owes a lot to jazz even if the appreciation is not necessarily reciprocal. The only examples that come to mind are Pat Metheny's collaboration with Steve Reich and a biting pastiche by Willem Breuker. Always wondered whether somene like Nik Bartsch's music sounded anything like minimalism although what little I've heard is pretty annodine.

The notion that a rhythm section should be some form of shackle or restriction is , at first, an anathma. Usually this has mean't the adsence of a drummer but I have heard groups who dispense with the bassist too. In practicality, the absence or presence of a "traditional" rhythm instrument shouldn't make much difference and I take that the quotation suggests some form of free approach to the music without a regular pulse. Personally, I have found it refreshing rehearsing with a trio that doesn't use a drummer but you are very reliant upon the bassist providing a regular groove to swing against. It is not necessarily more liberating than playing without a drummer as the bassist is more restricted in how they play without a drummer as there is generally a time-keepinmg / groove role in addition to anchoring the harmony to a note which has some relationship with the underlying harmony or substituted harmony. I would suggest that dispensing with the bassist insteas of the drummer would be far more liberating. (Check out the Coltrane live recording of "One up, one down" where the tenor battles in an amazing duo with Elvin Jones to see what I mean.)

From a Classical point of view, if you transpose a bass line and stick it in a formal, non-improvised context it could be construed as uninspiring - atleast with the kind of bass-lines that were being played up until he 1960's. I've been listening to Jason Moran's Bandwagon this week and this is a prime example of how liberating a bass and drums can be in the hands of Tarus Mateen and Nahseet Waits. This group typifies the feel of contemporary jazz and in a fashion that probably wasn't possible even 20 years ago. There is a version of a Jackie Byard tune on the latest record which is a hommage to 1930's stride piano initially before confidently romping away in a 4/4 swing feel . Then, all of a sudden, the beat is kicked away from underneath the band and it becomes impossible to work out where the one is. There are few bands who swing so hard without emphasizing the "one." This disc is fascinating in this respect albeit no substitute for hearing the band to this live. I've also heard Mateen and Waits do the same trick in a quartet led by exciting Logan Richardson where the pianist was "top bloke" Stanley Cowell - one of the nicest jazz musicians I've met.

I've always felt it odd how some musicians from the Imrpov community have a rather sniffy attitude to rhythm and the notion of swing and Oddball's quote very much reminded me of this. However, I have to say that a degree of "pulse," momentum, etc, etc is always an essential incredient within the music I like most and some improv sounds very much like cuting your nose off top soite your face in this respect. Whether it is King Oilver, Count Basie, Sonny Clark or Dave Holland, groove remains an integral part of jazz in my opinion and the great strength of the music is the variety of ways this has been expressed over the years. Whilst soloists like Sonny Rollins, Lee Konitz or any number of pianists and guitarists have managed to overcome the lack of a rhythm section, they all have an inner ear which allows them to play phrases which swing. By and large, i find few horn players interesting enough to want to hear them play solo or atleast without some instrument providing the harmony and a yardstick against which to throw out swinging phrases. Essentially, it is the vitality of jazz rhythm which has made is so compelling. I don't feel that the drums in jazz impede the music by any stretch of the imagination and would contest that the opposite is more often the case. The drums are one instrument where the levels of mastery in jazz are well in excess of any other form or stryle of music.

I think that notions that the drummer's role in jazz could be restrictive of improvisational movement became part and parcel of how far rhythm could be "liberated" from regular time patterning by freeing up the overall musical context through abandoning chord changes. Many free jazzers, exponents of free improv, and writers like Barry McRae in the late 60s and early 70s, felt the introduction of rock rhythms to be transposing sympathetic rigidities into the solos played on top. McRae didn't change his view on this until he heard how Trevor Watts had taken on board polyrhythmic thinking in his late 70s Amalgam group as a consequence of working rock, folk and African ideas organically into the improvisational approach he had previously worked up to in harness with John Stevens in the SME.

If one thinks of Eddie Blackwell's approach in the great Ornette Coleman Qt of the end of the 50s, his steady pulse superficially resembled that of Max Roach behind the best bop groups of the 1940s, except that it no longer tied in pulse with bar lines or repeat structures. Now that concepts of foreground and background had either become eclipsed by Coleman's greater equalisation of inputs, rather than harmonic rhythm having the final say, off-beat punctuations that had once mediated improvisation and structural points of return could now be either generative of, or generated from, the soloist's line. The drummer was now expected to pay as much attention to passing nuance as his or her ideas and their appropriateness for injecting into the flow. Paul Motian adapted this to the standards-based tunes favoured by Bill Evans; there a previously unprecedented level of attentive interactivity in a straight ahead setting combined with ambiguous harmonic substitutions to help disguise the repeat chorus srtructures used, thereby rescuing the long depended on device from banality.

In the celebrated "Out to Lunch" recording these methods were pushed to a point where whether or not chorus structures were still being observed became secondary to the listening experience, being effected by interpolating intermittent cross rhythms into a predominant tempo, then further cross rhythms into these cross rhythms, with others improvising in relation to either the basic or the intermittent cross rhythmic insertions. As a result one hears off-beats off off-beats off beats! Some might see this as a specifically "European" way of connecting back to the polyrhythmic origins of jazz - a sensuous kind of thing where one moves in and out of pulse with the collective improvisational flow, like natural fluctuations in everyone's heartbeat, in contradistinction with the military precision of the practice metronome, and I happen to believe this recording was of huge importance to the manner in which John Stevens and others this side of The Pond in particular were enabled to move several evolutionary steps beyond 4/4, 3/4r or even 5/ and 7/4. In America most did not go quite so far...

S-A

[charles t]

Serialist: I would like a more 'fleshed-out' version of your Dunmall alert...I, for example, have indundated a shelf or two with DUNS releases.

Serialist: Was it something I said?

[Serial_Apologist]

Serialist: Was it something I said?

Oh sorry Charles - your obliqueness passed o'er me head!

Paul got a lot of stick on the old board, accused by some for being a Coltrane clone. I think he's a colossus, up there with the greatest, and always defended him. Hence the alert laid on with heavy trowel. Dear Paul - he never disappoints. Every one of those Duns releases a gem in its own right. As happens we saw him last evening at the Vortex.

Best wishes!

S-A

[handsomefortune]

last listen again for shebaka and co, and lots else right now, plus kevin the genre is guesting.

[Serial_Apologist]

last listen again for shebaka and co, and lots else right now, plus kevin the genre is guesting.

Thanks HSF, missed this 1st time around. I introduced Shabaka to Paul Dunmall btw. Just thought I'd mention that to add my weight to posterior. And I'm worried about Le Gendre's name being non-PC in the postmodern world Jon3 promulgates. Perhaps he should have it changed by Deed Poll to Kevin La Gendre-Bendrette!

[handsomefortune]

to add my weight to posterior.

and who wouldn't grasp the opportunity ..with both hands!

it was a fun packed show on jo3. first up, i particularly liked henry threadgill's drummer.

shebaka and friends discussion of minimalism was slightly irritating. doubtless through no fault of their own, in their forced sounding introductions, annunciating their names, as if at a local authority meeting about street lighting, or sewage. it's so dull and contrived sounding! it doesn't fit jazz at all in my booook. still, it was good to hear from 'the necks' bass player, and dave hollenbeck espesh, in relation to their use and understanding of minimalism.

some fabulous moments during shebaka's set. but his own composition 'dusk' felt like it took up the whole jo3, and i was 'surrendering' far too early ........to the time honoured scratchy rodent instrumentation, interpretation of minimalism. payback time was rewarding after 'dusk'... and 'i love you porgy' was enjoyable and unusual, as in unique.

perhaps there wasn't nearly enough from kit downes, and the rhythm section, it was definitely shebaka's gig. however, i think it'd have been good to be at a 'jazz in a church' gig.

however, i might have run the risk of assaulting leafcutter john, i'm afraid, possibly rearranging his laptop about his person. the annoying bursts of high pitch, whineing feedback were presumably his idea. but it was easy to get away, escape from, at home, by just moving away from the pc! as for the burst of digi foghorn farts, i suspect these were john's too.

it was a similar fruitless partnership, seeing leafcutterjohn with seb rochford, just distracting. lcj does nowt onstage, other than peer into a laptop screen, interspersed with a range of fidgeting, stage left. logically, doing onstage mixing is surely the worst place to be, hearing and judgment-wise? so all in all, i don't get what his role actually is.

if live jazz is to incorporate digi stuff, then why is lcj so inconsequential, under whelming? arguably, it doesn't help digi music; plus it detracts from the liveliness, sponteneity of jazz performance. yet, it could conceivably be so exciting, and combine well ......

[Serial_Apologist]

to add my weight to posterior.

and who wouldn't grasp the opportunity ..with both hands!

it was a fun packed show on jo3. first up, i particularly liked henry threadgill's drummer.

shebaka and friends discussion of minimalism was slightly irritating. doubtless through no fault of their own, in their forced sounding introductions, annunciating their names, as if at a local authority meeting about street lighting, or sewage. it's so dull and contrived sounding! it doesn't fit jazz at all in my booook. still, it was good to hear from 'the necks' bass player, and dave hollenbeck espesh, in relation to their use and understanding of minimalism.

some fabulous moments during shebaka's set. but his own composition 'dusk' felt like it took up the whole jo3, and i was 'surrendering' far too early ........to the time honoured scratchy rodent instrumentation, interpretation of minimalism. payback time was rewarding after 'dusk'... and 'i love you porgy' was enjoyable and unusual, as in unique.

perhaps there wasn't nearly enough from kit downes, and the rhythm section, it was definitely shebaka's gig. however, i think it'd have been good to be at a 'jazz in a church' gig.

however, i might have run the risk of assaulting leafcutter john, i'm afraid, possibly rearranging his laptop about his person. the annoying bursts of high pitch, whineing feedback were presumably his idea. but it was easy to get away, escape from, at home, by just moving away from the pc! as for the burst of digi foghorn farts, i suspect these were john's too.

it was a similar fruitless partnership, seeing leafcutterjohn with seb rochford, just distracting. lcj does nowt onstage, other than peer into a laptop screen, interspersed with a range of fidgeting, stage left. logically, doing onstage mixing is surely the worst place to be, hearing and judgment-wise? so all in all, i don't get what his role actually is.

if live jazz is to incorporate digi stuff, then why is lcj so inconsequential, under whelming? arguably, it doesn't help digi music; plus it detracts from the liveliness, sponteneity of jazz performance. yet, it could conceivably be so exciting, and combine well ......

The form = >> the presentation. The nerds with laptops are just there to distract the onlooker into listening.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6owYhb096gc

(see to the right of the clip for what follows)

I asked Mark if that session had been as restrained as the impression given by the broadcast, and he affirmed that it was, with much accounting by the musicians for the acoustic and setting.

Bottoms Up!

[handsomefortune]

aha, well spotted serial apologist. please,.... help yourself to more ear wax.

The form = >> the presentation. the medium has deficated on the message?

that's quite an 'achievement' considering the room's got a lovely wooden floor, should sound rich acousticly. i don't get why you'd choose that room, and then also choose him..!?

the sounds might've been recorded in a tiled/concrete toilet cubicle, (and spur an emergency check up at the doc's for tinnitus).

i think he's may be digitally flangeing everything; or, there's a pc music software setting called 'sewer pipe' ...that might be it.

either way, the results are hollow and quite unpleasant..... which might be useable, appropriate in some settings, and might explain why he only gets the foghorn fart role, and feedback noise, at shebaka's church offering. perhaps we should be thankful for small mercys eh!