R3 hates jazz and is trying to kill off jazz on the radio

[Pilchardman]

remember a nice line delivered by Barbara Flynn in The Beiderbeck Affair say in there were three types of jazz 'hot jazz', 'cool jazz' and 'when does the tune start?'.

A great line and a great series. Or series of series. (It's "...and what time does the tune start", btw).

There was a good one in the Simpsons last night, too. "8 hour Jazz Benefit Concert. 2 tunes will be played".

[barber olly]

A great line and a great series. Or series of series. (It's "...and what time does the tune start", btw).

There was a good one in the Simpsons last night, too. "8 hour Jazz Benefit Concert. 2 tunes will be played".

Thanks for the correction but it was 20+ years ago, in the scale of things I think I did quite well.

[Pilchardman]

Thanks for the correction but it was 20+ years ago, in the scale of things I think I did quite well.

It's just that I've recently watched the boxed set.

[french frank]

That is why Jazz is such a hard sell to most Classical fans. And that is why, as Calum has pointed out, it need to be emphasised to the powers that be that Radio 3 is not just a Classical music station (although classical music is the main shareholder).

The irony is that 10 years ago, that was the line that R3 was peddling. A regular three and a half hours of daytime jazz (yes, I know, I know, but that was more than it had ever been before. Like ever), jazz being introduced, judiciously, into CotW and even the evening concert (not to mention Breakfast), a jazz artist among the New Generation Artists scheme, jazz commissions: 'Radio 3 is not just about classical music ...'

The thing about strategies is that they can be tweaked, changed, turned on their heads.

[Serial_Apologist]

It's difficult to compare one genre with another, where there are so many sub-species in each genre that overlap with each other, but if it possible to generalise, I would say the Jazz, as a mix of cerebral and heart/hip, is much more weighted towards heart/hip than classical music, which starts off from cerebral considerations.

Funny that you should say that, OB.

A couple of years ago I called in on a friend of mine who is a composer of contemporary classical music in several genres. I was invited up to his study to hear a computer mock-up for a brand new orchestral work soon to be given its concert premiere. I remarked on how easy I was finding it following the score on the computer screen. At one point a line, which had been performed in the violins part, was repeated several bars later in inverted form in the clarinets and oboes; and I burst out laughing, mainly at being able to spot this in the middle of a brand new work of Boulezian modernity, and then suppressed the impulse, feeling that maybe the composer could have been offended. "Well, what do you think?" he asked, as the work concluded. I replied that I was most impressed, adding my apologies for laughing out loud. "Oh, don't worry", he said, "That bit's ACTUALLY supposed to be funny!"

[barber olly]

That one!

[old khayyam]

Absolutely. But what I think is possibly significant in the context of R3 is that there is a great deal more "good time" that naturally occurs in Jazz, even its more esoteric contemporary varieties, than exists in most classical music (including contemporary "classical" music).

It's difficult to compare one genre with another, where there are so many sub-species in each genre that overlap with each other, but if it possible to generalise, I would say the Jazz, as a mix of cerebral and heart/hip, is much more weighted towards heart/hip than classical music, which starts off from cerebral considerations.

That is why Jazz is such a hard sell to most Classical fans. And that is why, as Calum has pointed out, it need to be emphasised to the powers that be that Radio 3 is not just a Classical music station (although classical music is the main shareholder).

I do find it interesting that having immediately explained that my use of the term "goodtime jazz" was loose, casual, and approximate, we decided to pick it up and run with it regardless, completely side-stepping my main point in the post; that being the concept of R3 as a home for serious musics of all kinds.

On reflection, however i fear that said concept is a difficult line to tread. Danger being all kinds of pop-groups demanding inclusion on the basis that they were being serious when they wrote their last ballad, etc. But i was happy with the way things were in the 90s.

[MrGongGong]

I do find it interesting that having immediately explained that my use of the term "goodtime jazz" was loose, casual, and approximate, we decided to pick it up and run with it regardless, despite the fact it wasnt even my main point in the first place; that being the concept of R3 as a home for serious musics of all kinds.

On reflection, i fear that said concept is a difficult line to tread. Danger being all kinds of pop-groups demanding inclusion on the basis that they were being serious when they wrote their last ballad, etc.

It's important (IMV) to understand that most people in Bands , particularly teenagers, are very very serious indeed
in fact the idea that "POP" music is not "serious music" is a bit of an Oxymoron it's often far too serious

[barber olly]

Did not Jazz start off as fun and then got serious.

[Pilchardman]

Trying to define "art music" will get us nowhere. In my view, lots of "pop" or rock is indeed art music: Captain Beefheart, the Fall, Magazine, Can, the MC5, John Cale, Sonic Youth, Mogwai, Shakin' Stevens. Charlie Parker didn't like pigeon-holing bebop or indeed jazz: "it's just music", he said. To do physical damage to Emma Goldman's aphorism, once you start dividing music between "fun" and "serious", I'm going to have to opt out of your revolution.

Radio 3 says it'll give us "classical" music, plus some jazz and "world". Let's hold them to that, without having to justify why those genres belong together.

[old khayyam]

Radio 3 says it'll give us "classical" music, plus some jazz and "world". Let's hold them to that, without having to justify why those genres belong together.

Fair comment. I'm happy to stick with that. Except to say that 'Mixing It' also made room for such Guardianesque artistes as

Beefheart, the Fall, Magazine, Can, the MC5, John Cale, Sonic Youth...

to be considered as another type of modern composer, and fair play to that also.


(sorry about the scything wit)

[Pilchardman]

"Guardianesque"!?

Outside, sir! I shall have satisfaction, damn you!

[old khayyam]

So the point i'm making is, while there is nothing wrong with trad jazz, it seems to be the only jazz i hear on R3 these days. Mind you i dont listen much..

[burning dog]

R6 tends to feature some Art pop and rock. There isn't much jazz now on any other Beeb channel.

I tend to prefer Pop that isn't considered Art.

[Quarky]

On reflection, however i fear that said concept is a difficult line to tread. ......... But i was happy with the way things were in the 90s.

Agree with you for the most part OK.

But if you have listened to the Breakfast Programme on R3 recently, I think you would agree that it's difficult to apply the word serious to much of the music - light music perhaps, the type that uses to be played on the Light Programme.

Unfortunately, I do not think the sole differentiator is whether the music is serious or not. That may be enough for the compleat musician, but for most of the audience, it is a matter of culture and upbringing. So it will, by and large, be a different audience that listens to the Jazz programmes.

The Jazz FM station may have its faults, but it is frequently possible there to listen to Jazz in its natural milieu.

On the subject of Trad Jazz, what about Trombone Shorty? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kq8ZqVTrOFI