Climate change-related improvs but no Weather Report!

[Ian Thumwood]

Hmm, I thought that might have the effect of shutting down the conversation. The point is that it's the incompleteness or imperfection of improvisatory musics, including but not limited to jazz, that gives them their radical quality and their importance.

I would tend to agree with this statement but with the caveat that it might not always be apparent to the listener when a peace if through composed or if there is an element of improvisation. Picking up on Jazzrook's comment about knowing what is being played on JRR in advance is also interesting as I think this actually clouds the judgement - such as Bluesnik mistaking Teddy Wilson for Oscar Peterson.

No sure that I agree that improvised music necessary has an athencity about it or vice versa. The latter is clearly the case whether you are talking about Robert Johnson perfoming a blues (pre-rehearsed and not improvised ) or any number of Classical composers whose music is no less authentic than improvised works. Is Bartok's music any more of less athentic that is folk music sources ? I think there is a lot of the idea of "truth" being captured that could be considered spurious but, by the same token, this is also a lot of music where this does apply. There is also a lot of music which is clearly superifical or shallow in it's execution and maybe even cynical as is increasngly the case these days where commercial pressures seem paramount.

I would also argue that you might have to take a lot of the social, political or even personal circumstances in to consideration as to whether a musician is being truthful, honest or authentic. It is very subjective and clearly the idea of what is "truthful" in jazz can be seen as being on dodgy ground. I recall someone on here commenting about the pianist Phineas Newborn being poorly considered by some crdits of his day because of the perceived view of his style of playing. Seventy yers later and these comments seem a bit stupid. I find it interesting how some jazz or blues musicians are dismissed for a lack of authencity and hoe these views are often propagated by non-musicians. You just have to look back to earlier generations of critics and writers such as Rudi Blesh or Eric Hobsbawm where their arguments no longer stand up to close scrutiny.

[RichardB]

I would tend to agree with this statement but with the caveat that it might not always be apparent to the listener when a peace if through composed or if there is an element of improvisation.

Indeed I would say that if listeners are concentrating on whether, and to what extent, something is being improvised, they might not be concentrating sufficiently on what's actually going on musically. Usually of course it's fairly obvious, but precomposed and improvised elements can be interwoven to the point that it becomes impossible as well as unenlightening to try and unpick them from one another. Cecil Taylor's solo music is a good example of this.

No sure that I agree that improvised music necessary has an athencity about it or vice versa.

The "truth" value of music is something that comes into being in the listener's mind rather than being directly transmitted by the composer/performer, I think. I'm not sure what "authenticity" in this context actually means. I might feel there's something obviously fake about Einaudi or Kenny G, but plenty of people have honestly thought that about Schoenberg or Ornette.

[Serial_Apologist]

I cannot remember who said it but I recall jazz being described as an "imperfect" air form as the improvisatory nature means there is no finite performance. It is not something I would subscribe too and I would tend to think that if there is any "truth" within music, it is more likely to be captured in performances of a shorter nature than anything that is protracted.

Is that (in your view) because limited time for improvisation on these old recordings (if indeed this is when the musician is the most "himself" or "herself") tends to concentrate the musical thought process, which can too easily drift into over-dependence on ready-made solutions? I tend to think the opposite - namely that the longer the time offered to the improvising musician to embrace the ongoing experience, the greater the chance that he or she will find new directions, particularly in sympathetic musical company. You need to have colleagues on side in such ventures, which is what came to define Coltrane's musical journeys, as well as a great deal of what we revere about jazz in the 1960s. I think it was the Indian mystic Ramakrishna who remarked that the more one can "lose" oneself in action - with of course the proviso that one has already become skilled in the mode of operation - the more "self-realised". This to me has more to do with "authenticity" than any abstract notion, though I would agree with RichardB that it certainly becomes apparent to the witness when this happens. We have to acknowledge that for the detached witness this is always mediated in some way - no Hand of God is ever innocent! The ways in which black Congregationalist ministers in America are capable of "transporting" worshippers might thus also be said to fall into this experiential category.

[Serial_Apologist]

A New Generation Artists live item I overlooked from Monday afternoon featuring saxophonists Dave O'Higgins and Iain Ballamy, guitarist Rob Luft, pianists Ross Stanley and Huw Warren, bassists Misha-Mullov-Abbado and Conor Chapin, and Billy Pod, drums:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001fnv6

Don't be put off that it begins with some Bach!

Isn't the opening item half-inched off of Ornette's "When Will the Blues Leave"?

[Ian Thumwood]

Is that (in your view) because limited time for improvisation on these old recordings (if indeed this is when the musician is the most "himself" or "herself") tends to concentrate the musical thought process, which can too easily drift into over-dependence on ready-made solutions? I tend to think the opposite - namely that the longer the time offered to the improvising musician to embrace the ongoing experience, the greater the chance that he or she will find new directions, particularly in sympathetic musical company. You need to have colleagues on side in such ventures, which is what came to define Coltrane's musical journeys, as well as a great deal of what we revere about jazz in the 1960s. I think it was the Indian mystic Ramakrishna who remarked that the more one can "lose" oneself in action - with of course the proviso that one has already become skilled in the mode of operation - the more "self-realised". This to me has more to do with "authenticity" than any abstract notion, though I would agree with RichardB that it certainly becomes apparent to the witness when this happens. We have to acknowledge that for the detached witness this is always mediated in some way - no Hand of God is ever innocent! The ways in which black Congregationalist ministers in America are capable of "transporting" worshippers might thus also be said to fall into this experiential category.

The argument is entirely subjective. In my opinion, the format of old 78 rpm records meant artists had a finite time within which to express themselves and therefore there was less time for noodling which, if I was being hyper-critical, is a tendency which probably crept into jazz with Be-bop / late 1940s and the whole "jam session" culture which, at that time, was seen as the expression of greatest integrity. Listening to records like "The Chase" by Wardell Gray & Dexter Gordon (to pick a familiar example) the concept does not sound so great these days and rehashed in 2022, the results would sound somewhat dishonest and false. In my opinion, much of these jam session / controntational styles of jazz from the late 40s and early 50s are guilty of sounding a bit indulgent and maybe our ears have become dulled by the notion of endless solos on 32 -bar theme , often structured AABA. A lot of musicians from the 20s, 30s and 40s were experts at condensing their solos within the shorter constraints afforded by recording technology. Less of the improvised solo was wasted.

I concur with the comments you make about more extended solos but, within jazz, there are probably only a select few who are masters at this. Glad to see Cecil Taylor's name mentioned in this debate because he was probably the greatest exponent in this extent and maybe only rivalled by Coltrane, Rollins and Jarrett. Taylor really opened the flood gates in this respect but it is an ability that few in jazz have truly been able to resolve when expressed as a percentage of musicians playing jazz. What I admire about a musician such as Paul Bley is the ability to improvise and immediately get "in the zone."

This is a strange argument as i can be swayed in both ways. The notion of "truth" or authenticity" in jazz is subjective but this does not mean that it does not exist. It has always been part of the debate within jazz ever since the ODJB made their first records in 1917 and started the whole debate in the first case. 105 years later I would argue that their detractors were pehaps a little harsh yet the arguments of authenticity and social appropriation are relevant. Perceptions ans opinions change with time yet it fascinates me why paticular records such as Blind Willie Johnson's "Dark was the night, cold was the ground" are deemed so "authentic" and capturing such truths that set them apart from the rest of his repertoire. Seeing the names of Kenny G and Einaudi banded around in this discussion simply reminds us of the enormous gulf between music which matters and music which is commercial and superficial.