The teaching of Jazz is now legit!

[Ein Heldenleben]

It goes back way before the arrival of bebop. Fletcher Henderson (a chemistry graduate) was a fluent sight-reader and a song-plugger in the early 20s, and he expected similar standards from the members of his band. Armstrong's sight reading was brushed up considerably during his time with FH. Redman arranged for Henderson before moving to assist John Nesbitt in McKinney's Cotton Pickers. Another fluent reading band. Doc Cheatham (who learned to read music at school in Nashville, and learned jazz by sitting in with the pit band at a TOBA Theatre) told me that McKinney's in common with almost all the other early bands he played with (after working with Ma Rainey and Albert Wynn, whose bands did play by ear) were packed with fluent readers and writers. That includes Sam Wooding's and Cab Calloway's orchestras. Jimmie Lunceford gained his BMus music degree from Fisk in 1926, a college that taught music to African Americans since the days of the Jubilee Singers in the mid 19th century. So it'd be good to see some of those who post here recognising that jazz musicians have been musically literate, good sight readers and accomplished arrangers from the outset of the music. Morton reminds us that in the time of Bolden's early bands John Robichaux led a "reading" orchestra.

Thanks Alyn - I had assumed that all the Ellington bands must have been good readers as well . Interesting to know that reading was also common right back to the earliest days.

[Serial_Apologist]

Thanks Alyn - I had assumed that all the Ellington bands must have been good readers as well . Interesting to know that reading was also common right back to the earliest days.

Indeed - the same applies to many of us, I would think. I'm sure I was told long ago that Louis Armstrong came up with those amazing Hot Fives and Hot Sevens arrangements, despite not being able to read a note of music. Such myths have been widespread, and while in no way demoting recognition of the equally vital role of improvisation in driving jazz forward, we have to thank Ian Thumwood and Alyn Shipton for steering this particular discussion in such an informative direction.

[Alyn_Shipton]

I had a quick look in Louis Armstrong in his Own Words (ed Thomas Brothers) and Louis was certainly reading when he was with Fate Marable, before joining Oliver. He says Oliver taught him "anything he wanted to know" and that when he arrived in Chicago "they didn't have to write down their breaks" because they intuitively understood one another. But the implication is they did have some written charts. He recalls joining Henderson and being given the third trumpet part of "By The Waters of Minnetonka" which he read, and that was a year and half before the first Hot Five recording, so I think that old story is just untrue that he couldn't read a note when he made the Hot Fives and Sevens.

[Ein Heldenleben]

There’s an interesting article on Louis’s early education here

https://www.jazziz.com/louis-armstrong-colored-waifs-home-boys/

Unlike Alyn I just don’t know enough about the early jazz era to know how accurate the article is. Although I knew about the waif’s home Marching band I didn’t realise that the home had a system of formal musical education . Remarkable and a bit of an eye opener given the relative lack of the same in some of our modern schools. The author also has an interesting theory about why early jazzers didn’t want to learn to read - they thought it would constrain improvisation. He thinks Louis learnt to read when he joined Fate Marable’s riverboat band - mentioned upthread I think . He had to as it was a “reading” band

[Ian Thumwood]

The Alan Lomax interview with Jelly Roll Morton could have done with being more rigorous. At some point in the interviews, a bottle of whisky was introduced and Morton's recollections became increasingly salacious and the tone of the conversation in the unedited edition detracts from the piano playing. I wish Lomax had been a better historian and maybe cross-checked some of Morton's assertions and been more disciplined to get better quality information our of Morton.

Interesing to hear the standards within both McKinney's and Henderson's bands, both of whom whose music I love. It was hearing (McKinney's band that inspired MJQ's John Lewis to pursue a career in jazz.) Prior to the advant of more jazz-orientated bands, there were plenty of reviews touring the States and Europe involving people like Sam Wooding which would have played to a high standard One of the earliest was Will Marion Cook whose band introduced Sidney Bechet to Europe as part of a reviews which is always cited with the comment by the conductor Amsamet which used the verb "swing" to describe the music. Cook was an important writer and also studied with Dvorak.

If you could be parachuted into the musical world of the 1900 / 10s I think we would be surprised how sophisticated the music was even if it was not jazz. It is a shame that Edison did not pull his finger out sooner to allow cmore of this music to be captured,

[RichardB]

Interesting to know that reading was also common right back to the earliest days.

Gunther Schuller's book Early Jazz contains much information on this subject. It's my understanding that, over the entire history of jazz, most musicians would have had to be readers. It's not as if being able to read music is so very difficult - the idea that it's something specialised is relatively recent I think.

I'm reminded of an anecdote from the 1980s. A couple of London musicians had written a song for Eartha Kitt which was intended to form the basis of a comeback for her, and they invited her along to a studio in the West End to record her vocal part. When she arrived they told her they'd recorded a demo of the instrumental parts for her to sing to, to which she replied that she would only work with sheet music. The musicians explained that nothing had been written down, they didn't read music and she just needed to learn it by ear, at which point she left for her hotel, telling them to call her when they had her part ready. They had no idea what to do at this point, but eventually found someone to come to the studio and transcribe the vocal part, after which Ms Kitt returned in her limo and recorded it.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Gunther Schuller's book Early Jazz contains much information on this subject. It's my understanding that, over the entire history of jazz, most musicians would have had to be readers. It's not as if being able to read music is so very difficult - the idea that it's something specialised is relatively recent I think.

I'm reminded of an anecdote from the 1980s. A couple of London musicians had written a song for Eartha Kitt which was intended to form the basis of a comeback for her, and they invited her along to a studio in the West End to record her vocal part. When she arrived they told her they'd recorded a demo of the instrumental parts for her to sing to, to which she replied that she would only work with sheet music. The musicians explained that nothing had been written down, they didn't read music and she just needed to learn it by ear, at which point she left for her hotel, telling them to call her when they had her part ready. They had no idea what to do at this point, but eventually found someone to come to the studio and transcribe the vocal part, after which Ms Kitt returned in her limo and recorded it.

Amazing . Conversely Luciano Pavarotti admitted in 1997 couldn’t read music and learnt by singing along - he did have perfect pitch though . On the jazz notation theme I was many many years ago once asked to notate a standard piano boogie -woogie figuration for a recording session. I have no idea why that was but anyway the notes were C C’ E F F# G G, G C etc then repeated in 12 bar blues fashion.
About a month later I was watching a documentary on Liberace who was then at the night of his career. I know he’s now (wrongly) a bit of joke but he was a really good piano player . At one point he launched into a presto boogie - woogie with exactly that figuration BUT in Dflat of all keys . I went into school the next day and another amateur pianist said to me “ he had to do it in Dflat didn’t he ? Only a pianist would know how difficult that is ! “

[RichardB]

with exactly that figuration BUT in Dflat of all keys . I went into school the next day and another amateur pianist said to me “ he had to do it in Dflat didn’t he ? Only a pianist would know how difficult that is ! “

Actually though, that kind of thing is much easier to play in keys with lots of black notes (try it and see!). Irving Berlin - not a reader - could only play and compose in the key of F#, and had a transposing piano made so that he could adapt his playing for singers for whom that key didn't work so well.

[Ein Heldenleben]

Actually though, that kind of thing is much easier to play in keys with lots of black notes (try it and see!). Irving Berlin - not a reader - could only play and compose in the key of F#, and had a transposing piano made so that he could adapt his playing for singers for whom that key didn't work so well.

I’ve tried it .I find it more difficult perhaps because the black notes are thinner. Perhaps it’s psychological - black note fear?
For some reason the 4,3,2 fingering element I find easier in C major . The e to f just feels easier than the f to gflat maybe because the d flat to f stretch is fractionally more than c to e ? Perhaps it’s because the c to e is standard arpeggio fingering but it’s not in D flat.Perhaos I have a weak left hand fourth finger? Who knows . I can play the figure in any key but the sharp and flat keys just “ feel” more difficult.
Apologies to non pianists for this arcane digression ..

[Ian Thumwood]

My piano teacher used t be able to sight read music in to different keys.

I have to admit that I finds the keys with flats easier to play than those in sharps. I have the look of too many sharps on manuscript as there always seems to be too much information to take in.

The issue of Irving Berlin in interesting. I know that a lot of earlier Harlem Stride pianists of the early 1900s purposely chose to play in keys such as A maj, E maj , B major and F# major because of the reason that they were difficult keys which deterred rivals in what was a very competitive field. I seem to recall Eubie Blake was particularly partial to this. It has always made me feel that these kinds of piano players were virtuosi who were operating at extremely high levels of technical proficiency. That style of playing requires masses of stamina too. I appreciate that players like Fats Waller are often singled out yet I just feel that the whole Harlem Stride generation where operating at extremely high levels. #increidble to think that James P Johnson, for an example, was not only a pioneer in this resepct but also capable of writing series Classical works that have been championed by Marin Alsopp in recent years.

Picking up on the Henderson related post, I read an account where Pee Wee Russell was standing in for Coleman Hawkins in Fletcher Henderson's band and was shocked by rthe fact that the arrangements were written in difficult keys.

[RichardB]

For some reason the 4,3,2 fingering element I find easier in C major . The e to f just feels easier than the f to gflat maybe because the d flat to f stretch is fractionally more than c to e ?

Fair enough. But I do think there's an element of tonalities with several black notes being perceived as more difficult because of the way they're notated, rather than how they fit under the hands on the keyboard. Having said that, for woodwind instruments D flat really is a more difficult key!

[Ein Heldenleben]

Fair enough. But I do think there's an element of tonalities with several black notes being perceived as more difficult because of the way they're notated, rather than how they fit under the hands on the keyboard. Having said that, for woodwind instruments D flat really is a more difficult key!

Which is interesting because in the doc Liberace is playing along with a band..

[Dave2002]

Orally, or indeed, in the case of instrumental music, aurally.

[Ein Heldenleben]

My piano teacher used t be able to sight read music in to different keys.

I have to admit that I finds the keys with flats easier to play than those in sharps. I have the look of too many sharps on manuscript as there always seems to be too much information to take in.

The issue of Irving Berlin in interesting. I know that a lot of earlier Harlem Stride pianists of the early 1900s purposely chose to play in keys such as A maj, E maj , B major and F# major because of the reason that they were difficult keys which deterred rivals in what was a very competitive field. I seem to recall Eubie Blake was particularly partial to this. It has always made me feel that these kinds of piano players were virtuosi who were operating at extremely high levels of technical proficiency. That style of playing requires masses of stamina too. I appreciate that players like Fats Waller are often singled out yet I just feel that the whole Harlem Stride generation where operating at extremely high levels. #increidble to think that James P Johnson, for an example, was not only a pioneer in this resepct but also capable of writing series Classical works that have been championed by Marin Alsopp in recent years.

Picking up on the Henderson related post, I read an account where Pee Wee Russell was standing in for Coleman Hawkins in Fletcher Henderson's band and was shocked by rthe fact that the arrangements were written in difficult keys.

Myra Hess had a party piece of playing the First C major Chopin etude - the one with the wrist cracking arpeggios.- in differing keys .That takes a bit of doing.
My Fats Waller album has all his standards in the obvious keys though.

[Serial_Apologist]

Interesting that people have spoken of finding sharpened keys more difficult to perform at the piano than flattened ones. As someone who was always a poor sight reader, whose playing has improved a great deal (in my 70s!), and who mainly improvises without scores - freely improvising, making up spontaneous melodies, and playing standards - that improvement came at the point where I felt I just had to tackle John Coltrane's Giant Steps, in the key(s) in which he wrote it. I was thinking that given this tune is (or was once) considered one of the most difficult jazz pieces to play because of its relatively complex tonal structure, with many key changes over a short stretch, it might help improve my playing. And it has! - I now find it much more easy to improvise my way through even unorthodox modulations: it has also helped me get away from clichés I've too long depended on, and so I would strongly recommend this tune as a gateway to greater flexibility. But it must be played in the key Coltrane composed it in, starting in B major!