Don your Panama in matching Terri Lyne, for the Pinsky Zoo

**Ian Thumwood** · 04-02-21, 20:49

Intrigued to see this schedule because a number of these musicians featured have been featured in articles on the internet quite a bit this week. Surprised to see Jan Kopinski's name crop up twice in a week. There seemed a time in the late 1980s when his name was frequently being banded about and he seemed to be hailed as the UK's answer to the kind of Harmolodic free-funk that was particularly popular at the time. It is strange how this stuff seemed much fancied at the time yet critics seem to have discarded it as the latest "modish" thing arrived on the scene. I hadn't heard his name for ages so it seems quite startling to come across him twice in the same week. Most people seem to equate the British jazz scene of the 1980s as being caught between Andy Sheppard, Courtney Pine and Loose Tubes as the new kids on the block whilst the generation that emerged in the 1960s seemed to hit their creative peak. There was a much wider scene and Jan Kopinski was a musician who caught a lot of fans and critic's imagination at the time. There are other players like Mervyn Africa, Ashley Slater, Chick Lyle, Brian Kellock, Ken Stubbs, Ken Hyder , Mick Hutton and Claude Deppa who all seemed essential components of the jazz scene at the time yet don't seem to get any coverage at all in the jazz media these days. I am not sure if any of them have retired. The one player I always wondered about was Paul Reid, a pianist from Sheffield who was heralded as the British Cecil Taylor and once made the front cover of "The Wire." I had not appreciated that he now works as a classical composer and goes by the name Paul Gladstone-Reid. I have to say that this composition of his is absolutely superb.....

**Alyn_Shipton** · 05-02-21, 12:09

Mention of Ivy and Barbara Thompson prompts me to point to this online streaming event with the films of Mike Dibb. His three Barbara films go online from today and next week it's Ian Carr's portraits of Miles and Jarrett: https://www.whitechapelgallery.org/e...listening-eye/
PS dunno where the Coltrane came from but he's not in this week's JRR! (Bix and Marian are, though! And Duke Jordan, Kit Downes and the Ellington Orchestra in Manchester...)

**Serial_Apologist** · 05-02-21, 14:53

Originally posted by Alyn_Shipton View Post

Mention of Ivy and Barbara Thompson prompts me to point to this online streaming event with the films of Mike Dibb. His three Barbara films go online from today and next week it's Ian Carr's portraits of Miles and Jarrett: https://www.whitechapelgallery.org/e...listening-eye/
PS dunno where the Coltrane came from but he's not in this week's JRR! (Bix and Marian are, though! And Duke Jordan, Kit Downes and the Ellington Orchestra in Manchester...)

They just make it up as they go along, like jazz musicians!

Thanks for the note.....ifications on the Mike Dibb documentaries, Alyn: well worth seeing for how it should be done.

**Serial_Apologist** · 07-02-21, 19:31

I think I'm right is saying that yesterday's J to Z was a repeat - although nothing to mention that as being so in either Radio Times or on the site link. I thought something was mentioned to that effect after the end of the programme? Also there seemed to be something familiar about much of what was on Freeness.

**Serial_Apologist** · 08-02-21, 18:48

Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post

Sat 6 Feb
11.45an - Music Matters
Tom Service hosts a reunion as he celebrates the musical legacy of Leeds-born band leader Ivy Benson (1913-93), who in the 1940s rose to fame with her All Girl Band, which Benson formed in 1939 in an attempt to address the inequalities in pay between male and female musicians. They risked their lives entertaining Allied troops in war-ton Europe and fought their own battle of the sexes back at home. Benson led her band until 1983, having employed more than 300 women. Tom Service is joined by former band members, Joyce Terry (singer), Claudia Lang-Colmer (bass) and Carol Gasser (saxophone), and Janet Tennant, author of a new Benson biography, Sax Appeal

Repeated Monday 10pm.

Barbara Thompson began her performing career with Ivy Benson, so is sure to get a mention, surely?

BBC Radio 3 - Music Matters, Girl power in the 1940s

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000s1gf

The stories that matter, the people that matter, the music that matters

The Ivy Benson item commences at 16 mins, for those interested.

(BTW it lasted about 10 minutes, and there was no mention of Barbara. Or Annie Whitehead, for that matter. They could at least have mentioned some of the careers launched, surely!)

**Ian Thumwood** · 08-02-21, 19:36

Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post

The Ivy Benson items commences at 16 mins, for those interested.

I listened to this programme on line last week and found it totally unconvincing. It covered the same ground without really giving much clue as to what the jazz produced by these women sounded like. I acknowledge that this is an area ripe for exploration but even the contribution of Val Wilmer could not rescue this problem.

BBC Radio 4 - Don't You Forget About Me, The Lost Women of British Jazz

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p06ys8kf

Shining a light on the earliest female jazz pioneers, who were erased from music history.

I felt that it failed in so many respects but especially regarding the fact that it did not really explain what the music sounded like. Even the clips of music had little real bearing on the bands being discussed. The attitudes of the likes of Spike Hughes seem neanderthal by today's standards yet the producers failed to recognise that Hughes really knew what he was talking about. His opinions on women's ability to play jazz that were quoted are all originating from the 20s and 30s are outmoded by today's standards. I would argue that his opinion of what was "good jazz" probably still has some bearing. Just because his views are sexist 90 years on, I would argue that his comments about the music are unlikely to be inaccurate. Most of the jazz bands discussed in the programme are most likely to have not been jazz groups but dance bands from that generation. What never got mentioned was the fact that many of the bands consisting of their male counterparts in the UK were probably as equally average. In the circumstances, you wonder what proportion of the music played by these "girl bands" would now been considered to be jazz, especially at this is a minefield with regard to many of the famous dance bands of their day. Jazz was only a proportion of what they performed.

As a piece of social history, the subjects of this documentary deserved better. As an exercise in musicology, the radio documentary was an absolute non-starter. Anyone who is a fan of jazz will have been disappointed by the superficial nature of the programme and the fact that it lacked rigor as a piece of historical research. Everything was too generic. I also felt that the interviews did not really explore some of the nuggets they had been presented with such as the woman who played in Will Marion Cook's pioneering orchestra which toured Europe in the late teens / early twenties and was famous to employing Sidney Bechet. The story of this musician alone was worthy of it's own documentation. (I seem to recall the a number of the musicians in this band also drowned when their boat stuck a mine in the Irish Sea. ) No attempt was made to find out what kind of music she played nor how she acquired her skills. The names of Stobart and Benson were trotted out without attempting to explain how women's opinions changed as the music evolved from being the popular music of the day and into a musical quest. The only conclusion that could be made was that the two producers either knew nothing about jazz or were not interested.

By the time the 30 minute documentary had been completed, I felt that nothing had been offered which would have changed my understanding half an hour beforehand. I find that the whole "feminist" argument in jazz often misses the point. Given that the likes of Maria Schneider, Terri-Lynne Carrington, Carla Bley, Mary Halvorson, Geri Allen, Dianne Reeves, Linda Oh, Nicole Mitchell, etc, etc can be argued to be standard bearers for the current status of jazz, the need to single them out women is not really necessary since they are the very best in their fields. In 2021, women are instrumental in shaping jazz and certainly not the adjunct they were in the 1920s. Given that the jazz scene was naissant in Europe for much of that decade, I don't think these women have necessarily been over-looked and the question is more along the lines of the fact that they were so distant from "where the action was." Crossing the Atlantic , there were women who had been "in the mix" with some of the early jazz and, more importantly, they had totally dominated the Blues scene. Singers like Bessie Smith easily crossover into jazz and produced a wealth of records deemed to be "classics." I think the producers had an agenda but misplayed their cards.

By the time I got to the end, it did feel like the presenter was laying it on a bit thick. It almost felt the same as some presenters extolling the virtues of the best players in woman's football without offering a female equivalent of Georgie Best, Pele or Eusabio let alone Matt Le Tiss! Women playing jazz in 1920s /30's Britain was still very much a sideshow and whilst the "expectations" of the female musicians obviously limited their opportunities, I felt the programme had most certainly reached it's conclusions irrespective of it's failure to both thoroughly explore the topic and to do their subject matters justice. Sorry to say that i thought this was a rubbish piece of history. Got to say that it is a shame Alyn did not have a say in it's production because he can do both the music and the history aspects which this story required.

**BLUESNIK'S REVOX** · 08-02-21, 22:15

By way of contrast, "The International Sweethearts of Rhythm", from 1946. Impressive indeed. The tenor player Vi Burnside especially. Earl Hines called them "The first freedom riders" as they played the South as an integrated band. http://youtu.be/tpNjAmQmq90

**Ian Thumwood** · 08-02-21, 22:37

Originally posted by BLUESNIK'S REVOX View Post

By way of contrast, "The International Sweethearts of Rhythm", from 1946. Impressive indeed. The tenor player Vi Burnside especially. Earl Hines called them "The first freedom riders" as they played the South as an integrated band. http://youtu.be/tpNjAmQmq90

Thanks for posting.

I have to admit that this band is one I have read about but I cannot recall ever hearing them. The sound is very similar to bands like Hones and Millinder's of around the time. I think that the music exemplifies my comments. This is a terrific band regardless of the fact it is women who are performing. They deserve to be better known.

**Alyn_Shipton** · 09-02-21, 13:23

The Sweethearts was a fine band. The best collection of their work (check out the images of the liner on this site) only came out on LP: https://www.discogs.com/Internationa...master/1253079
There's a not very good CD (terrible remastering) called "Hot Licks". The best remastered tracks - just one or two of them, are on a 90s Bluebird issue compiled by Leonard Feather called "The Women".
24 years ago I made a programme For Radio 3 about the band when I interviewed Jesse Stone (former Territory band leader, and composer of Shake Rattle and Roll) who (along with Eddie Durham) was one of their key arrangers. Jesse met and married his wife Evelyn McGhee Stone when he worked with the band as she was its vocalist. https://genome.ch.bbc.co.uk/ce357115...6858eebb4b7f08
Maybe Bluesnik has a C60? In any event I have a book coming out next year from Cambridge University Press with expanded versions of those interviews.
I also made a Jazz Notes in the 90s about Ivy Benson, and talked to various alumni including Sheila Tracy. But that too seems to be lost in the mists of time...

**BLUESNIK'S REVOX** · 09-02-21, 15:06

Originally posted by Alyn_Shipton View Post

The Sweethearts was a fine band. The best collection of their work (check out the images of the liner on this site) only came out on LP: https://www.discogs.com/Internationa...master/1253079
There's a not very good CD (terrible remastering) called "Hot Licks". The best remastered tracks - just one or two of them, are on a 90s Bluebird issue compiled by Leonard Feather called "The Women".
24 years ago I made a programme For Radio 3 about the band when I interviewed Jesse Stone (former Territory band leader, and composer of Shake Rattle and Roll) who (along with Eddie Durham) was one of their key arrangers. Jesse met and married his wife Evelyn McGhee Stone when he worked with the band as she was its vocalist. https://genome.ch.bbc.co.uk/ce357115...6858eebb4b7f08
Maybe Bluesnik has a C60? In any event I have a book coming out next year from Cambridge University Press with expanded versions of those interviews.
I also made a Jazz Notes in the 90s about Ivy Benson, and talked to various alumni including Sheila Tracy. But that too seems to be lost in the mists of time...

Alyn, I don't have a cassette but I remember the programme. Jesse Stone seemed a remarkable figure, right up to house arranging etc with Atlantic records, he wrote "Losing Hand" for Ray Charles? Classic side with Mickey Baker.

**kernelbogey** · 09-02-21, 15:54

Somehow this thread title for me morphed into
Does your Panama...
and so
... lose its headband on the bedpost overnight?

Don your Panama in matching Terri Lyne, for the Pinsky Zoo

Don your Panama in matching Terri Lyne, for the Pinsky Zoo

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