Count on pieces of Silver to direct your We

**Ian Thumwood** · 15-10-20, 17:07

I will be interested to see the Count Basie documentary. One of the most interesting books on Jazz I have read is Frank Driggs book about Kansas City and the significance of Basie in the evolution of jazz is considered in context with what else was happening in that city at the time. I think that it is easy to downplay the kind of advances the likes of Basie and Eddie Durham cooked up in the early 1930s these days when it always strikes me as a turning point which separates the "vintage" from what became the "mainstream." If jazz had stopped in 1945, I think that Basie's bands would have been the epitome of the music. I think the New Testament band gave his music a second wind which cemented it's position as a "modern" outfit in the 1950s.

It is too easy to romanticize these developments with the passage of time so the reality of Basie's transformation of the Moten band is quite a shock when it is recounted in the book. The Basie of this era was quite ruthless with those musicians in Moten's band deemed to be old-fashioned and the Reno Club from where Basie band's broadcasts caught the ear of John Hammond was a far from respectable joint totally at odds with his subsequent wider acceptance under the management of Norman Granz. The book is fascinating in it's analysis of how musicians in the 1930s perceived their contemporaries and what was seen back then a "cutting edge" or old-fashioned. It doesn't take much of a stretch in the imagination to understand how it was almost on the cards that someone like Charlie Parker was always going to emerge form this kind of environment.

If I could go back in a time machine to listen to earlier jazz, I think the Kansas City of the 20s to early forties would be really rewarding. You wonder just how much people in Kansas City in the 1930s appreciated their brand of jazz was shaping music. One of the biggest losses in the evolution of jazz, is the loss of regional identity amongst musicians.

**Serial_Apologist** · 17-10-20, 17:38

Aaron Diehl was an example of the type of modern jazz which I'm glad did not provide my introduction to the music: far too neat and tidy. I often wonder how many have been initially put off by hearing a duff example. Regina was good though - here may be that youtube of Stuff Smith she came across:

Stuff Smith - Bugle Call Blues (Live 1965)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yWnOCy3_qY

I feel honoured to have the priviledge of putting this old video footage of this underrated mad violin genius and higly influential jazz figure, because ther...

I guess she is right in saying Stuff Smith is under-recognised. Joe Venuti is probably better known.

**Ian Thumwood** · 17-10-20, 21:27

Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post

Aaron Diehl was an example of the type of modern jazz which I'm glad did not provide my introduction to the music: far too neat and tidy. I often wonder how many have been initially put off by hearing a duff example.

SA

Aaron Diehl's work with Cecile McLorin Salvant is very much admired. He is a musician who has received a lot of praise in the press and maybe more acknowledged over the other side of the Atlantic than over here. I knew that you would really hate his playing as soon as it was listed and I am guessing that Bluesnik will not be favourable either although for different reasons. I think you have to look at him as a contemporary John Lewis as he was similarly classically informed and maybe just a conservative as an improvisor. If I am not mistaken, his taste in classical music is pretty advanced in contrast to his piano playing which sounds pretty much pre-Bill Evans generation to my mind. There are other players around today who plough a similar furrow such as the Italian Stefano Bollini and perhaps he does this with either greater commercialism. However, Bollini strikes me as being more impressive.

I saw Diehl a few years back at Southampton and my impression was slightly different. I felt he was really well informed regarding the byways of the jazz piano canon and obviously had no concerns about operating within very mainstream confines. In my opinion, there is too much jazz that has not been fully explored so hats off to Diehl for rectifying this to a degree. He should not be castigated because he chooses to play in a style that pre-dates Herbie. If someone wants to play stride, then I am all for that! I am not sure if I caught his trio on an off night but I was confused that he had been invited over when there are far better technical players in the UK working in the same mainstream field. I am not sure he is any better than say Dave Newton, for example. There were moments in the gig I caught where I felt he was very sloppy and ragged. Just rattling off a few names from the top of my head, I have seen other players perform like Nikki Yeoh and Zoe Rahman who are much better pianists. I could hear him in another night and he may be dazzling. On the evidence of the one instance I have heard him play in concert, the judgement on his playing seemed misplaced.

I think another point is that there are also older players like Kenny Barron around who effectively "own " mainstream jazz piano and the likes of Diehl has some heavy competition here. When it comes to that generation of players from the 1950s, I think that Diehl starts losing his lustre when compared with someone like Hank Jones. They have a lot in common yet Jones ultimately had such a wealth of experience that he had nothing to prove. I have heard him live of two occasions, a gig with Joe Lovano similarly pitched in the kind of "no risk" jazz you dislike yet delivered with the panache and elan which makes truly great jazz stand out from the good. Maybe Diehl will prove to become as good as Hank Jones was in another 30 years ?

It is quite interesting how a new generation of American players have started to change the consensus on European pianists. personally, Diehl is the least interesting of these pianist who work "in the tradition" but I would point you to his contemporaries such as Christian Sands and Gerald Clayton who I am sure you would similarly very much dislike yet who, for me, represent a vision of the future of jazz. I would seriously recommend listening to these two pianists and maybe that might help you put Diehl into context.

**Serial_Apologist** · 17-10-20, 21:47

Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post

SA

Aaron Diehl's work with Cecile McLorin Salvant is very much admired. He is a musician who has received a lot of praise in the press and maybe more acknowledged over the other side of the Atlantic than over here. I knew that you would really hate his playing as soon as it was listed and I am guessing that Bluesnik will not be favourable either although for different reasons. I think you have to look at him as a contemporary John Lewis as he was similarly classically informed and maybe just a conservative as an improvisor. If I am not mistaken, his taste in classical music is pretty advanced in contrast to his piano playing which sounds pretty much pre-Bill Evans generation to my mind. There are other players around today who plough a similar furrow such as the Italian Stefano Bollini and perhaps he does this with either greater commercialism. However, Bollini strikes me as being more impressive.

I saw Diehl a few years back at Southampton and my impression was slightly different. I felt he was really well informed regarding the byways of the jazz piano canon and obviously had no concerns about operating within very mainstream confines. In my opinion, there is too much jazz that has not been fully explored so hats off to Diehl for rectifying this to a degree. He should not be castigated because he chooses to play in a style that pre-dates Herbie. If someone wants to play stride, then I am all for that! I am not sure if I caught his trio on an off night but I was confused that he had been invited over when there are far better technical players in the UK working in the same mainstream field. I am not sure he is any better than say Dave Newton, for example. There were moments in the gig I caught where I felt he was very sloppy and ragged. Just rattling off a few names from the top of my head, I have seen other players perform like Nikki Yeoh and Zoe Rahman who are much better pianists. I could hear him in another night and he may be dazzling. On the evidence of the one instance I have heard him play in concert, the judgement on his playing seemed misplaced.

I think another point is that there are also older players like Kenny Barron around who effectively "own " mainstream jazz piano and the likes of Diehl has some heavy competition here. When it comes to that generation of players from the 1950s, I think that Diehl starts losing his lustre when compared with someone like Hank Jones. They have a lot in common yet Jones ultimately had such a wealth of experience that he had nothing to prove. I have heard him live of two occasions, a gig with Joe Lovano similarly pitched in the kind of "no risk" jazz you dislike yet delivered with the panache and elan which makes truly great jazz stand out from the good. Maybe Diehl will prove to become as good as Hank Jones was in another 30 years ?

It is quite interesting how a new generation of American players have started to change the consensus on European pianists. personally, Diehl is the least interesting of these pianist who work "in the tradition" but I would point you to his contemporaries such as Christian Sands and Gerald Clayton who I am sure you would similarly very much dislike yet who, for me, represent a vision of the future of jazz. I would seriously recommend listening to these two pianists and maybe that might help you put Diehl into context.

Thanks Ian. I will check 'em out.

**Alyn_Shipton** · 17-10-20, 22:53

I have a lot of time for Aaron. We featured him twice on Jazz Now, in a solo set from Jazzahead, which I thought stood up well against the other pianists in that showcase, Kevin Hays and Nik Bärtsch, and also in the quartet with Cecile McLorin Salvant. (Which I've also heard a few times in concert before her more recent work with Sullivan Fortner, and Aaron was never less than impressive in that setting.) He is a rather well-respected choir director in the NY area as well as a pianist. We also featured a solo set on Jazz Now from Christian Sands from the 2018 London Jazz Festival. Never quite managed to sort out a gig featuring Gerald, C, but we did include him in the obit show for Roy Hargrove.

**Quarky** · 18-10-20, 09:47

I found it significant that despite a very long opera, both J to Z and Freeness escaped the Controller's axe; instead it fell upon the New Music Show, which was shortened by 30 minutes.

Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post

Aaron Diehl was an example of the type of modern jazz which I'm glad did not provide my introduction to the music: far too neat and tidy. I often wonder how many have been initially put off by hearing a duff example. Regina was good though - here may be that youtube of Stuff Smith she came across:

Guessing the majority of Jazzers, particularly when starting off, viewed Jazz as an alternative to Classical, which should be avoided (myself included). However in this day and age, considering the twists and turns of Jazz history, I feel there's plenty of room for Jazz with a Classical influence, and this doesn't take away from what is felt to be the main thrust(s) of contemporary Jazz.

And bearing in mind Radio 3 is primarily Classical, the occasional nod towards classical might be politically expedient.

**Serial_Apologist** · 18-10-20, 15:19

Originally posted by Quarky View Post

I found it significant that despite a very long opera, both J to Z and Freeness escaped the Controller's axe; instead it fell upon the New Music Show, which was shortened by 30 minutes.

Guessing the majority of Jazzers, particularly when starting off, viewed Jazz as an alternative to Classical, which should be avoided (myself included). However in this day and age, considering the twists and turns of Jazz history, I feel there's plenty of room for Jazz with a Classical influence, and this doesn't take away from what is felt to be the main thrust(s) of contemporary Jazz.

And bearing in mind Radio 3 is primarily Classical, the occasional nod towards classical might be politically expedient.

It wasn't any classical influences, I assure you.

**Ian Thumwood** · 24-10-20, 08:37

I saw the Basie and Blue Note documentaries last night, although I did not get to the end of the latter.

The Basie documentary was fascinating because it was more about Basie the man than his music. It was surprising just how little was known about his personal life which he kept very private. I had no idea that his daughter, upon whom he absolutely doted, was severely handicapped nor that he was so involved in the Civil Rights movement where his wife was a significant player and associate of Martin Luther King. The details regarding the music were a bit lightweight and did not have much analysis. It did not really explain the significance of the Blue Devils band and the track played when the influence of this band was played was actually by Bennie Moten. ("Jones Law Blues.") I was aware of his determination to join Moten's band but the documentary would have been interesting if it had discussed how he ultimately transformed the band so it became a precursor to his own group. I can appreciate just how revolutionary his band must have sounded when he hit New York and was aware that critics like George T Simons were extremely hostile. You can imagine that this band's appearances would have put the wind up his contemporaries as the competition would have instantly become quite dated very quickly.

However, the most evident attribute of the documentary was to outline just how much Basie was respected as a man and as a bandleader. Quincy Jones' respect seemed paramount. The clip with Sinatra singing "Fly me to the moon" was very telling because the singer led down his guard when the arrangement finished and you could see from the expression on his face how much he enjoyed performing with this band backing him. Basie is one of my heroes and this documentary showed him to be one of jazz's nice guys.

The Blue Note documentary seemed uneven, in my opinion. Glasper and his colleagues added nothing of originality to the analysis of the label and contribution of Don Was were banal in the extreme. I have got to say that the likes of Glasper and Terrace Martin are not my cup of tea having seen them perform live. The constant references to Rap seem misguided. Putting these reservations aside, I think there were some very interesting stuff in there. I was fascinated hearing Lions' and Woolf's voices for the first time. The chatter from the recording sessions was intriguing also although not as fascinating as the photos from the session which were mesmerising. I have to say that the one thing I really enjoyed were the interviews with Lou Donaldson. Several years ago I heard Wynton Marsalis talk about Donaldson during a LCJO concert celebrating the music of Blue Note and he effectively made it clear that he was a real character. This came across in the interviews and I felt that his insights were probably the most insightful and the most fun. He came across as being hugely entertaining to listen to and I wish there was more with him featured.

**Serial_Apologist** · 24-10-20, 16:37

Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post

I saw the Basie and Blue Note documentaries last night, although I did not get to the end of the latter.

The Basie documentary was fascinating because it was more about Basie the man than his music. It was surprising just how little was known about his personal life which he kept very private. I had no idea that his daughter, upon whom he absolutely doted, was severely handicapped nor that he was so involved in the Civil Rights movement where his wife was a significant player and associate of Martin Luther King. The details regarding the music were a bit lightweight and did not have much analysis. It did not really explain the significance of the Blue Devils band and the track played when the influence of this band was played was actually by Bennie Moten. ("Jones Law Blues.") I was aware of his determination to join Moten's band but the documentary would have been interesting if it had discussed how he ultimately transformed the band so it became a precursor to his own group. I can appreciate just how revolutionary his band must have sounded when he hit New York and was aware that critics like George T Simons were extremely hostile. You can imagine that this band's appearances would have put the wind up his contemporaries as the competition would have instantly become quite dated very quickly.

However, the most evident attribute of the documentary was to outline just how much Basie was respected as a man and as a bandleader. Quincy Jones' respect seemed paramount. The clip with Sinatra singing "Fly me to the moon" was very telling because the singer led down his guard when the arrangement finished and you could see from the expression on his face how much he enjoyed performing with this band backing him. Basie is one of my heroes and this documentary showed him to be one of jazz's nice guys.

The Blue Note documentary seemed uneven, in my opinion. Glasper and his colleagues added nothing of originality to the analysis of the label and contribution of Don Was were banal in the extreme. I have got to say that the likes of Glasper and Terrace Martin are not my cup of tea having seen them perform live. The constant references to Rap seem misguided. Putting these reservations aside, I think there were some very interesting stuff in there. I was fascinated hearing Lions' and Woolf's voices for the first time. The chatter from the recording sessions was intriguing also although not as fascinating as the photos from the session which were mesmerising. I have to say that the one thing I really enjoyed were the interviews with Lou Donaldson. Several years ago I heard Wynton Marsalis talk about Donaldson during a LCJO concert celebrating the music of Blue Note and he effectively made it clear that he was a real character. This came across in the interviews and I felt that his insights were probably the most insightful and the most fun. He came across as being hugely entertaining to listen to and I wish there was more with him featured.

I think you would have been frustrated had you stayed on to the end of the Blue Note documentary, Ian, as it increasingly reflected the hip hop end of the business after the promising earlier part you outline. Lou Donaldson is a delight and holding up well for his 94 years: he has to be one of the few remaining from that 1940s generation - fascinating that he got the Blue Note contract after claiming to play like Bird when asked! Tired out by the end, I gave the subsequent programme on jazz pianists a miss, as it probably consisted of familiar clips. But yes, largely in agreement of your assessment of the Basie doc.: what a great evening's viewing!

**Ian Thumwood** · 24-10-20, 18:58

The thing with the "Blue Note tributes" is that they tend to be quite formulaic and there is a tendency to ignore what the revitalised label has issued since the 1980s. There were some cracking albums by the likes of Don Grolnick, John Scofield, Greg Osby, Dianne Reeves, Cassandra Wilson, Jason Moran and Andrew Hill which grabbed my attention back then. I am not too fussed by a lot of the stuff Don Was is issuing. It does seem to me that there is an element of history repeating itself - the current Blue Note roster mirroring the output when Blue Note had been sold to Liberty.

**Alyn_Shipton** · 24-10-20, 22:21

Lou Donaldson a lovely man. Interviewed him for R3 at the Jazz Cafe a few years back (well, more like 19 years back). I used to hear him regularly at Sweet Basil with his quartet with Herman Foster on piano when I was in NY in the 80s. Great player in the Parker mould, but also a fine blues singer. I was rather underwhelmed by the Basie film.

**Old Grumpy** · 27-10-20, 18:35

Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post

Sat 17 Oct
5pm - J to Z
Kevin Le Gendre presents live music from US classical and jazz pianist Aaron Diehl. Backed by his trio, he performs jazz piano classics including works by Horace Silver and Mary Lou Williams. And leading jazz violinist Regina Carter shares some of the music that inspires her, including a track by an undersung great of the instrument.

My first ambition was to play the violin outside Derry & Toms!

BBC Radio 3 - J to Z, Aaron Diehl in concert and Regina Carter

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000nm1y

Live music from pianist Aaron Diehl and his trio, plus Regina Carter’s inspirations.

12midnight - Freeness
Cutting-edge jazz and improvised music, featuring Los Angeles quartet We Bow to No Masters. Plus performances by British cellist Hannah Marshall and New York-based quartet Orientation of We, and an archive tape of saxophonist Joe Harriott.

BBC Radio 3 - Freeness, Lo-fi percussive propulsions

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000h6qr

Free-flowing saxophone lines, timbral guitar and double drums from We Bow To No Masters.

Sun 18 Oct
4pm - Jazz Record Requests.

Lots of Latin stuff, it says - like we all learned at schoolie: ammo, a mass and a mat.

Blog | Alyn Shipton | The official site of Alyn Shipton: Broadcaster, jazz historian, author and musician

http://www.alynshipton.co.uk/blog

BBC Radio 3 - Jazz Record Requests, Latin America

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000nkzh

Latin jazz records, as requested by Radio 3 listeners

Fri 23 Oct - BBC4
9pm - Count Basie through His Own Eyes
This biography, told in Count Basie's own words, uncovers the passions and ambitions that inspired the bandleader and pianist. Director Jeremy Marre unearthed a treasure trove of home movies and photo albums that reveal Basie's remarkable relationship with his wife Catherine. Featuring footage of performances with Frank Sinatra, Billie Holiday, Sammy Davis Jr and others, the film explores the inner motivation that drove Basie's career. Count Basie's words are spoken by Clarke Peters.

Followed by:

10.20pm - Blue Note Records
Behind-the-scenes documentary exploring the history of the jazz label, Blue Note, centred around a contemporary studio session featuring Robert Glasper, Marcus Strickland and Herbie Hancock. Contributors include veteran artists and new kids on the block, as well as the label's current president Don Was.

***** rating in RT.

and...

11.45pm - Jazz Piano Gold
Archive footage of performances from 1964 to 2009 by artists including Count Basie, Thelonious Monk, Oscar Peterson, Abdullah Ibrahim, Stan Tracey, Duke Ellington and Herbie Hancock. [Repeat]

And tonight on In Concert:. Rob Lift at 2035 (Sounds) or 2055 (RT https://www.radiotimes.com/radio/radio-listings/)

OG

Count on pieces of Silver to direct your We

Count on pieces of Silver to direct your We

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