Hassan Inn Ali Qrt - "The famously lost Atlantic album... 2021 Release?

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Just looking through the UK Proper Jazz web site and they have the "famously lost Atlantic session" by Hasaan with Ocean Pope scheduled for release in March 2021 as "Metaphysics". I thought this was certified "lost" because of the Atlantic fire, but other stuff has turned up since, so ....

It's apparently being issued in the States by Omnivore Recordings who specialise in the obscure, rare er "lost". But there's nothing yet on their website that I can see.

Anyway, here's the discog entry... fingers crossed!

Hasaan Ibn Ali Quartet
Odean Pope, tenor sax; Hasaan Ibn Ali as Hasaan, piano; Art Davis, bass; Kalil Madi as Khalil Madi, drums.

NYC, August 23, 1965

9220 The Atlantic Ones Atlantic unissued
9221 Viceroy -
9222 El Hasaan -
9223 Rich Man Love Give Power -
Hasaan Ibn Ali Quartet
same personnel.

NYC, September 7, 1965

9284 Metaphysics Atlantic unissued
9285 Epitome -
9286 The True Trane -
9287 Per Aspera Ad Astra

[Jazzrook]

Exciting news, BN.
Here's Odean Pope talking about the legendary Hasaan:

https://www.YouTube.com/watch?v=fKHxhPEM8lc

JR

[elmo]

Just looking through the UK Proper Jazz web site and they have the "famously lost Atlantic session" by Hasaan with Ocean Pope scheduled for release in March 2021 as "Metaphysics". I thought this was certified "lost" because of the Atlantic fire, but other stuff has turned up since, so ....

It's apparently being issued in the States by Omnivore Recordings who specialise in the obscure, rare er "lost". But there's nothing yet on their website that I can see.

Anyway, here's the discog entry... fingers crossed!

Hasaan Ibn Ali Quartet
Odean Pope, tenor sax; Hasaan Ibn Ali as Hasaan, piano; Art Davis, bass; Kalil Madi as Khalil Madi, drums.

NYC, August 23, 1965

9220 The Atlantic Ones Atlantic unissued
9221 Viceroy -
9222 El Hasaan -
9223 Rich Man Love Give Power -
Hasaan Ibn Ali Quartet
same personnel.

NYC, September 7, 1965

9284 Metaphysics Atlantic unissued
9285 Epitome -
9286 The True Trane -
9287 Per Aspera Ad Astra

This is fantastic news I hoped that one day this session would be released, it was thought that all copies of the master were lost in the Atlantic vault fire.

Some more Hasaan exists at the Rutgers University as part of Alan Sukoenig tapes collection. not only Hasaan from 1962 but Elmo Hope from 1964 and Trane at the Showboat in 1963 where he plays piano on some tracks. This all needs to be available on cd.


Alan Sukoenig collection of audio recordings
CollectionIdentifier: IJS-0305



Institute of Jazz Studies Alan Sukoenig collection of audio recordings
Collection Overview
Collection Organization
Container Inventory
Scope and Contents
This collection consists of nine audio tape reels. There are six 3 1/4-inch reels and three 7-inch reels. These include Alan Sukoenig's original recordings of live peformances by John Coltrane, Hasaan Ibn Ali, and Elmo Hope. Also included are recorded copies Sukoenig made of unissued Ibn Ali recordings from 1962 and a recorded interview of Thelonious Monk conducted at Pep's Lounge in Philadelphia by Sukoenig and Gerry Barrish in 1960. The Coltrane recordings comprise the saxophonist's famous 1963 performances at The Showboat in Philadelphia, containing the only known recording of Coltrane playing piano. The Ibn Ali recordings include 1964 performances at the University of Pennsylvania; 1965 recordings in New York City; and other unidentified recordings. The Elmo Hope recordings include 1964 performances at the West-Side YMCA Auditorium in New York City. The collection also contains recordings by saxophonist David Shier and Kenny Barron circa 1962. See less

elmo

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Looks like it's REAL!
Trailer for the album ...

http://youtu.be/v4MgU8xtFHI

Really like the sound of that!

[Jazzrook]

Looks like it's REAL!
Trailer for the album ...

http://youtu.be/v4MgU8xtFHI

Really like the sound of that!

'Metaphysics' now scheduled for release on April 23, 2021:

https://omnivorerecordings.com/shop/metaphysics/

JR

[Ian Thumwood]

Further information about this record included within this article....

https://jazztimes.com/features/profiles/hasaan-ibn-ali-lost-album-found-new-chapter-opened/

I did not know much about this musician other the comments made on previous threads where his name has cropped up. I have listened to some of his Atlantic trio album and have to say that he was done a great disservice by the out of tune piano. It is something that is a real bugbear for me and I am hoping the new record does not suffer from this kind of problem.

The article has some nice stories in it although is not really in depth enough to answer some queries you would want answered about a musician that original who largely went ignored by the major record labels. You get the impression of a musician whose style sounds like it should be placed somewhere between Herbie Nichols and Andrew Hill which is largely why I am intrigued by this disc. It is intriguing to hear someone like Odean Pope on a record going back to 1965 because you always think of him as being contemporary.

This lunchtime I was reading another article about a similar "iconic" composer, Julius Hemphill whose compositions and recordings are now being compiled in a prestigious box set by his former acolyte , Marty Ehrlich. I had forgotten about him and wasn't aware of the full range of his work. I really think that there is a serious question of "unfinished business" with so much jazz that emerged from the 1960s onwards. I never really paid much attention to these kinds of players when I was getting in to jazz in the 1980s yet the extent to which they have fallen in to obscurity is quite alarming. For me, I am increasingly finding that so much jazz in the 1980s retains it's punch and in a fashion that you do not find so much these days. There has always been a "dissident" element within jazz writing which has taken it's cues from Ellington , Monk, Nichols. Hill, etc and then on to the kind of musicians associated with AACM and BAG. It is a shame that you do not find personalities in the current jazz scene that match the kind of idiosyncratic approach of writers such as Hemphill, Roscoe Mitchell, John Carter, Muhal Richard Abrams, etc. It will be interesting to see exactly how the Hasaan recordings from 1965 fit in to the broader picture of what was happening at that time.

[Ian Thumwood]

Review of the Hassan album here:-

https://www.allaboutjazz.com/metaphysics-the-lost-atlantic-album-hasaan-ibn-ali-omnivore-recordings

I have to say that reading the review did make me listen to the sample track below a little differently. I entirely understand the comparisons with Herbie Nichols but the track seemed also to have a lot of the nervous intensity is normally associated with Bud Powell albeit they are stylistically very different. For me, the track seemed to suggest that there were other issues at play. I would also add that I think the comparisons with Nichols are perhaps superficial. Nichols was more of a composer and improviser whose ideas were clearly thought out. I am not getting that sense with Hassan, where the music seems pretty intense and maybe undisciplined. The tempo is really pushed and I am not so sure regarding the density of the piano playing. If I am harsh, I would say that it sounded like an undisciplined version Stan Tracey track. I have to be honest and say that I think Tracey was a far better pianist.

I usually love pianists of this ilk but I am not so sure about Hassan. Yes, he has something about him and he was beating a different path to many of his contemporaries. However, I just sense that these records maybe too closely capture some of the chaos of his personal life. I will be interested to see if anyone buys this disc and will post their thoughts on line.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Part of a long review from nycjazzrecord.com. I think there's a planned launch/review/discussion around Hasaan and the recording etc with Oden Pope in a few days time. From what I've heard (just a little) I like it a lot, but then I'm a big admirer of Elmo Hope, in particular tge the brilliant 1959 Contemporary trio album with Jimmy Bond & Frank Butler.

"...Accepting that Ali was an important influence is
one thing, but explaining that influence is difficult.
Pope and others tell us that the pianist provided
a model for Coltrane’s demanding work ethic and
influenced his harmonic thinking, as well as his
“sheets of sound” approach to improvising. But we
cannot point to any unified theoretical approach like
George Russell’s Lydian Chromatic Concept and it
doesn’t clarify things much when we hear that Ali
talked about things like twenty-ninth chords. He
himself felt that he was extending an approach used
by Hope, though most people would hear Hope as
an advanced bebopper. It’s easy to hear his influence,
though. Something of the brooding harmonic quality
of Hope ballads like “Barfly” was heard in “Hope
So, Elmo” on the Legendary Hasaan record and is
heard again on the dedication here to another
pianist, Bud’s brother Richie Powell, “Richard May
Love Give Powell”. There are also specific chord
voicings that sound similar and Ali, like Hope, made
ample use of the higher registers of the piano while
soloing, though his touch was always more assertive.
Both Hope (“De-Dah”) and Ali (“Almost Like Me”)
wrote great tunes based on riff figures, but so did
Monk and Herbie Nichols, among others. Metaphysics
opens with a textbook example of such a tune,
“Atlantic Ones”, a performance that evokes a genie
bursting free from confinement. Apart from Coltrane
himself, it’s hard to imagine a tenor saxophonist
who could have sounded as assured as Pope in this
rocky harmonic terrain. The next tune, “Viceroy”, is
like bent bebop, written over the chord sequence of
“Mean To Me”, and both Ali and Pope reference the
normal changes as well as mysteriously derived
substitutions. The tag to this tune is reminiscent of
Hope’s recording of “It’s a Lovely Day Today”.
The self-referencing title “El Hasaan” is
particularly impressive. It is not a complicated
melody but takes two or three cubist turns and the
structure and chord sequence also feel slightly off-
kilter. Appropriately, Pope takes a more abstract
approach, so that while we hear echoes of Coltrane’s
sheets of sound, they seem to come from unexpected
directions. When his solo ends abruptly in mid-
phrase, we are left feeling that every unpredictable
twist follows the piece’s internal logic...."

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

"This coming Tuesday, April 6th, at 7 p.m. EDT, there will be an online discussion, with Odean Pope and two of the producers about Hasaan Ibn Ali and his long-lost but now about-to-be-released 1965 album, which is being called Metaphysics. Here's the link for registering (which is free): https://www.eventbrite.com/e/the-leg...s-148068975291. An edited version of the event will later be posted on the Philly Jazz Talk channel of YouTube."

From Organissimo (USA) two days ago.

[Ian Thumwood]

I cannot make my mind up about Hasaan. I concede that he was thinking "outside the box" but the trio tracks are a hard listen and not only for the wildly out of tune piano. I am afraid that I could not put up with listening to this music for too long. There is something chaotic about it and unpolished. The trio recording reminds me of all sorts of pianists ploughing the same field but who I would have to say do this kind of stuff so much better. It sometimes recalls the trio work that Monk produced on Prestige and there are other times where I feel he is channelling Herbie Nichols albeit he totally lacks Nichol's compositional skills. There is enough in there not to write Hasaan off and , I would hasten to add, Odean Pope is a musician I greatly respect so I am inclined to take what he says for granted. I appreciate the Hasaan was a significant figure on that particular scene, At times, the freeness of Hasaan's playing recalls Don Pullen whereas the heavy touch does suggest someone like Stan Tracey. However, I would have to say that I think Hasaan is not operating at the same kind of level as these musicians. Played end-to-end, the trio is headache inducing. The lack of variety with his touch is hard to stomach and he seems even more neurotic than some of Bud Powell's later recordings. Despite the fact it has Max Roach on drums, it is not a great trio. (Compare with Ellington's "Money Jungle" if you want an idea of how this stuff sounds like when done really well.) When you read the article from the website I had posted and learn about Hasaan's tragic life, the kind of jazz produced does not really come as a surprise.

By all accounts, the new material seems to be much better than the trio set and anything with Odean Pope playing has to be welcomed. However, I remain to be convinced that the "legendary" tag is fully justified , at least on the basis of the trio album. It is intriguing that Hasaan has acquired such a status whereas another pianist from that era, Austin Crowe is totally forgotten. Listening to Crowe perform with Walt Dickerson makes you wonder why is has been over-looked. I think that Jazzrook will concur with this comment. No one is raving about Austin Crowe and i would argue he was a far better pianist. On today's scene there are players like Paul Giallorenzo who would fit in to the same category of playing yet remain ignored by the mainstream jazz press and is totally off the radar of many fans too.

It is good that Hasaan has been recorded for posterity and hopefully the new material will do him more justice or at least permit him to be heard on a decent piano and not one which deserved to have been whittled down to kindling. On the basis of the trio material, I think he is certainly radical and you can appreciate why Odean would have been impressed. Despite this, I do not see him as another Herbie Nichols. I would like to be proven wrong and am hoping that the likes of Jazzrook, Bluesnik or Elmo pick this new album up and can offer a more informed opinion once the new album is released. I would also be keen to read Alyn's opinion too, to be honest.

Not for me, I am afraid.

[Jazzrook]

I cannot make my mind up about Hasaan. I concede that he was thinking "outside the box" but the trio tracks are a hard listen and not only for the wildly out of tune piano. I am afraid that I could not put up with listening to this music for too long. There is something chaotic about it and unpolished. The trio recording reminds me of all sorts of pianists ploughing the same field but who I would have to say do this kind of stuff so much better. It sometimes recalls the trio work that Monk produced on Prestige and there are other times where I feel he is channelling Herbie Nichols albeit he totally lacks Nichol's compositional skills. There is enough in there not to write Hasaan off and , I would hasten to add, Odean Pope is a musician I greatly respect so I am inclined to take what he says for granted. I appreciate the Hasaan was a significant figure on that particular scene, At times, the freeness of Hasaan's playing recalls Don Pullen whereas the heavy touch does suggest someone like Stan Tracey. However, I would have to say that I think Hasaan is not operating at the same kind of level as these musicians. Played end-to-end, the trio is headache inducing. The lack of variety with his touch is hard to stomach and he seems even more neurotic than some of Bud Powell's later recordings. Despite the fact it has Max Roach on drums, it is not a great trio. (Compare with Ellington's "Money Jungle" if you want an idea of how this stuff sounds like when done really well.) When you read the article from the website I had posted and learn about Hasaan's tragic life, the kind of jazz produced does not really come as a surprise.

By all accounts, the new material seems to be much better than the trio set and anything with Odean Pope playing has to be welcomed. However, I remain to be convinced that the "legendary" tag is fully justified , at least on the basis of the trio album. It is intriguing that Hasaan has acquired such a status whereas another pianist from that era, Austin Crowe is totally forgotten. Listening to Crowe perform with Walt Dickerson makes you wonder why is has been over-looked. I think that Jazzrook will concur with this comment. No one is raving about Austin Crowe and i would argue he was a far better pianist. On today's scene there are players like Paul Giallorenzo who would fit in to the same category of playing yet remain ignored by the mainstream jazz press and is totally off the radar of many fans too.

It is good that Hasaan has been recorded for posterity and hopefully the new material will do him more justice or at least permit him to be heard on a decent piano and not one which deserved to have been whittled down to kindling. On the basis of the trio material, I think he is certainly radical and you can appreciate why Odean would have been impressed. Despite this, I do not see him as another Herbie Nichols. I would like to be proven wrong and am hoping that the likes of Jazzrook, Bluesnik or Elmo pick this new album up and can offer a more informed opinion once the new album is released. I would also be keen to read Alyn's opinion too, to be honest.

Not for me, I am afraid.

Ian

Some comments about Austin Crowe and link to a fascinating interview with Walt Dickerson:

https://www.organissimo.org/forum/index.php?/topic/72909-who-can-tell-me-a-bit-about-austin-crowe-pianist/#comment-1266298

JR

[Serial_Apologist]

I'm following this thread with great interest: thanks to you all for helping fill a few gaps in my picture of the era and introducing me to figures I'd not heard of.

[Ian Thumwood]

I'm following this thread with great interest: thanks to you all for helping fill a few gaps in my picture of the era and introducing me to figures I'd not heard of.

SA

It is intriguing just how many pianists throughout history largely went unrecorded or should have made more recordings than they did. The earliest example is probably Peck Kelley who was a mentor to numerous jazz musicians in the 1920s, the most famous of which was Jack Teagarden. He was supposed to be reluctant to travel beyond his home of Texas and rejected the overtures of some of the most famous names of the 1920s and 30s including both of the Dorseys. There was a lot of media interest in the late 1980s when a recording session he was involved in in 1957 was unearthed and the music saw the light of day for the first time. I can remember the record being played on Humphrey Lyttelton's Best of Jazz at the time. You can also hear some bootlegs like this which is quite intriguing because the musicians in the rest of the band on in the Swing / bop tradition. Kelley is supposed to have been really advanced for his time (1920s) and a fore-runner of Art Tatum, I suppose. This track reminds me a bit of Clyde Hart, another hugely important musician who bridged Swing and Bop.

I find it fascinating how some musicians get a "cult status" by not recording. These days, the musicians would be putting their own material out from their websites but you are left curious just how many significant musician failed to get in to the studio between the 1920s and 1960s. If they did, you often find out that the recordings often do not do justice to the reputations these musicians at. In the case of Richard Twardzick, there are some bootleg recordings that came out on Lonehill in the early 2000s which prompt the impression that he would have ended up in more freer elements of jazz as opposed to the stuff he recorded with Chet Baker or the more interesting records with his own trio.

The Hasaan piano trio session is so intense that I struggle to listen to more than a few tracks at a time. I think he was ill-served by the piano Atlantic gave him and the results are extremely dense. By comparison, I have spent this afternoon listening to another piano playing "maverick", the late Muhal Richard Abrams although this record actually features his writing for big band as opposed to playing the piano itself. He is not a musician I am too familiar with but the album he made in the late 1980s with the UMO Jazz Orchestra from Finland does make an intriguing comparison with Hasaan. One of the magazine articles made a good point about Hasaan not really having a distinctive compositional voice or concept and gives the example of George Russell as a contrast. I would have to say that Abrams would probably have made a better example. On this album, UMO the big band retains it's distinctive sound yet Abram's writing is indebted to Ellington whilst simultaneously absorbing some very atonal ideas. Listening this record ( picked up for a bargain on Amazon) I have to say Abrams could really write and managed to refract ideas which come out of Post-1918 Classical music through the lens of an orthodox, Ellington-inspired big band line up. I am wondering if this is what Alyn has in mind with the comment in the other thread about Stravinsky not really appreciating Herman's rhythm section. Abrams is relatively new to me and "UMO jazz orchestra plays the music of Muhal Richad Abrams" is exactly the kind of thing Jazzrook loves. I think you would very much appreciate it as well and maybe even Bluesnik might have his curiosity piqued.

The Walt Dickerson albums with Austin Crowe are available on the Avid budget label and are interesting for a variety of reasons. The fourth album has Andrew Hill on piano and is another reason to snap this up - Hill's own music probably also benefiting with his studies with Hindemith.

[Ian Thumwood]

Listening to Elmo Hope this afternoon, I think he is very indicative of the more "inquisitive" jazz musicians of the early 1950s. I like his playing although I think it would have been easier to grasp nearly 70 years ago than say Monk or Nichols. Scratch away some of the eccentricities of his playing and he is still intrinsically a bopper. He was also fortunate to be able to explore his concept with horns unlike Nichols. Hope has a very original style of playing which I like but I feel is was channelling a lot of Bud Powell as opposed to players like Hill and Monk who were seriously indebted to Ellington. Hill was one of jazz's great originals although does strike be to have his antecedents in Duke.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Some personal reviews of this now coming up on Organissimo. See their "New Releases" thread in the Forum. The general consensus seems to be its worth listening to but a not a lost masterpiece. Oden Pope is feeling his way (his first recording date) and the recorded sound can be a bit off depending on the format, CD or LP. Comparisons made to Cecil Taylor/early Shepp (The World of CecilTaylor, Candid) and to Elmo Hope composition wise. Which can't be bad.