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  • Ian Thumwood
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 4223

    Hot Jazz!

    I read an article this morning about a young musician called Connie Han who is a 24 year old, West coast jazz pianist who is getting rave reviews. She is not someone who I was aware of previously but the few samples you can hear on line demonstrate that she can really play.




    The reason I am posting this thread is because I cannot recall a case of any other jazz musician's profile being sexualised quite like this before. The are a series of photo shoots on her web page which are quite staggering, not only for the provocative clothes but also the poses and facial expressions too. It is like something for a pop music shoot. You can also buy autographed copies of the photos too if you are that sad. If you think that this is just a PR exercise, try looking at the titles of the tracks on her new album where originals have names like "Boy toy", "Mr. Dominator" or ""Gruvy." Her earlier record had a photo on the cover of her wearing more pvc that is in the inside of my Audi. Things have moved on a lot since Elmo Hope!


    Hailed by Variety Magazine as “one of contemporary jazz’s most talented and inventive musicians,” 27-year-old piano wizard and composer Connie Han has established herself as one of the leading innovators in the contemporary jazz piano pantheon.


    The album includes some pretty robust musicians in the band including Jeremy Pelt. Most of the music seems to be in a aggressive, post-bop manner which displays her formidable chops. This would appear not to be Smooth Jazz or anything else geared towards FM play. Mack Avenue, for whom she records, is a very credible, if mainstream record label.

    I have to say that it is really weird seeing a jazz album marketed like this. The music is the complete opposite of what the photo suggests. I don't mind seeing glamorous musicians on album covers and I think that the world of Classical music went down this route a good few years ago. There was controversy about some female performers being chosen for their looks and hence marketability at one point but Classical music has always courted controversy (since the days of Nige) in order to give the music credibility. To see this happen to this extent in jazz is bizarre because you would have imagined it would have had quite the opposite effect. However, it is something that has crept in over the last few years, perhaps starting with Diana Krall in the 1990s and there are other players like Grace Kelly and Hiromi who have flirted with what might be considered a "playful" image. I think the most "provocative" sleeve I have seen in the last five years is by saxophonist Roxy Cross but it you have a name that makes you sound like a porn actress , I suppose that comes with the territory. Mc Cross album was very much wrapped up in the #MeToo movement, so you could say it was ironic, even if the excessive tattoos made it look like she had stumbled out off a nightclub in Newcastle.

    Connie Han's publicity is troubling because it almost seems disrespectful to the target audience for this kind of jazz. The music is very much in the "New Neos" approach that was so popular in the 1980s although with a contemporary vibe with the Fender Rhodes added on a few tracks. Basically, we are in Miles 2nd Quintet territory. I think that image counts for a lot in jazz, not only with things like cultish Blue Note covers, but there is an underlying and unwritten rule that the music must be respected. Miss Han certainly looks easy on the eye yet I am not sure I want to see a musician I admire wearing a micro-mini or a crop top. Granted, she looks fit but I think I would prefer to judge her on a music (which sounds really good) and not on whether she is hot. The publicity shots on the site are more suggestive that she is trying to target a 14 year old male audience and are completely out of kilter with how jazz musicians try to convey the music. I have not seen anything quite like this in jazz before although I note that Steinway have signed her up. I cannot imagine that this will sit easy with the core audience for jazz for whom the music is central and more important that anything else. If it is to serve any purpose, I have always felt that the album covers were there to reinforce the credibility of the music enclosed within. It is nice to see creative album covers as nothing is worse that seeing something which is uninteresting or devoid of creativity. However, my worry would be that this could be the beginning of a slippery slope and labels signing artists on the basis of how good they looked.

    Judging my the expression on Ms Han's face, she does not look like she is to be trifled with! Though she be but little, she is fierce.
  • Joseph K
    Banned
    • Oct 2017
    • 7765

    #2
    Putting aside her appearance and, erm… well, her appearance appears to be the reason for this thread. So what is there left to say? She can play - that's all that counts.

    I take issue with your assertion that image counts for a lot in jazz. Granted, some titles of songs might be off-putting if they're poorly chosen, but if someone can really play then everything else is waffle.

    Comment

    • jayne lee wilson
      Banned
      • Jul 2011
      • 10711

      #3
      Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post
      I read an article this morning about a young musician called Connie Han who is a 24 year old, West coast jazz pianist who is getting rave reviews. She is not someone who I was aware of previously but the few samples you can hear on line demonstrate that she can really play.




      The reason I am posting this thread is because I cannot recall a case of any other jazz musician's profile being sexualised quite like this before. The are a series of photo shoots on her web page which are quite staggering, not only for the provocative clothes but also the poses and facial expressions too. It is like something for a pop music shoot. You can also buy autographed copies of the photos too if you are that sad. If you think that this is just a PR exercise, try looking at the titles of the tracks on her new album where originals have names like "Boy toy", "Mr. Dominator" or ""Gruvy." Her earlier record had a photo on the cover of her wearing more pvc that is in the inside of my Audi. Things have moved on a lot since Elmo Hope!


      Hailed by Variety Magazine as “one of contemporary jazz’s most talented and inventive musicians,” 27-year-old piano wizard and composer Connie Han has established herself as one of the leading innovators in the contemporary jazz piano pantheon.


      The album includes some pretty robust musicians in the band including Jeremy Pelt. Most of the music seems to be in a aggressive, post-bop manner which displays her formidable chops. This would appear not to be Smooth Jazz or anything else geared towards FM play. Mack Avenue, for whom she records, is a very credible, if mainstream record label.

      I have to say that it is really weird seeing a jazz album marketed like this. The music is the complete opposite of what the photo suggests. I don't mind seeing glamorous musicians on album covers and I think that the world of Classical music went down this route a good few years ago. There was controversy about some female performers being chosen for their looks and hence marketability at one point but Classical music has always courted controversy (since the days of Nige) in order to give the music credibility. To see this happen to this extent in jazz is bizarre because you would have imagined it would have had quite the opposite effect. However, it is something that has crept in over the last few years, perhaps starting with Diana Krall in the 1990s and there are other players like Grace Kelly and Hiromi who have flirted with what might be considered a "playful" image. I think the most "provocative" sleeve I have seen in the last five years is by saxophonist Roxy Cross but it you have a name that makes you sound like a porn actress , I suppose that comes with the territory. Mc Cross album was very much wrapped up in the #MeToo movement, so you could say it was ironic, even if the excessive tattoos made it look like she had stumbled out off a nightclub in Newcastle.

      Connie Han's publicity is troubling because it almost seems disrespectful to the target audience for this kind of jazz. The music is very much in the "New Neos" approach that was so popular in the 1980s although with a contemporary vibe with the Fender Rhodes added on a few tracks. Basically, we are in Miles 2nd Quintet territory. I think that image counts for a lot in jazz, not only with things like cultish Blue Note covers, but there is an underlying and unwritten rule that the music must be respected. Miss Han certainly looks easy on the eye yet I am not sure I want to see a musician I admire wearing a micro-mini or a crop top. Granted, she looks fit but I think I would prefer to judge her on a music (which sounds really good) and not on whether she is hot. The publicity shots on the site are more suggestive that she is trying to target a 14 year old male audience and are completely out of kilter with how jazz musicians try to convey the music. I have not seen anything quite like this in jazz before although I note that Steinway have signed her up. I cannot imagine that this will sit easy with the core audience for jazz for whom the music is central and more important that anything else. If it is to serve any purpose, I have always felt that the album covers were there to reinforce the credibility of the music enclosed within. It is nice to see creative album covers as nothing is worse that seeing something which is uninteresting or devoid of creativity. However, my worry would be that this could be the beginning of a slippery slope and labels signing artists on the basis of how good they looked.

      Judging my the expression on Ms Han's face, she does not look like she is to be trifled with! Though she be but little, she is fierce.

      "I am not sure I want to see a musician I admire wearing a micro-mini or a crop top."

      Which outfits would you suggest instead? Which Pose, which Vogue, to, er, "reinforce the credibility of the music enclosed within"..... You have some experience as a stylist? I mean, just to ensure she avoids offending muso taste and respectability in future...

      OK so - I guess you want Connie in something like this......
      yohji yamamoto black dress
      ...preferably bespectacled, serious, deep in practice or score-study......nothing expressing pleasure, ​let alone anything ​female or powerful.....

      Poor Connie Han.... seems destined for the same tragic neglected obscurity as.... Yuja Wang....

      ***

      "I think the most "provocative" sleeve I have seen in the last five years is by saxophonist Roxy Cross but it you have a name that makes you sound like a porn actress , I suppose that comes with the territory. Mc Cross album was very much wrapped up in the #MeToo movement, so you could say it was ironic, even if the excessive tattoos made it look like she had stumbled out off a nightclub in Newcastle."

      God, you still don't get it. Comments like this are are exactly why the #MeToo movement had to happen.
      (Spelling her name right would be a start....)
      Last edited by jayne lee wilson; 06-06-20, 01:04.

      Comment

      • BLUESNIK'S REVOX
        Full Member
        • Dec 2010
        • 4314

        #4
        Sex for Sales ...http://youtu.be/O5Rcp5vsyBY

        And lest we forget, all those '50s moody Bill Claxton photo sessions of Chet in his white t shirt, Chet without his T shirt but plus adoring girl friend at his feet, Chet as the new James Dean, even later, Chet shot in an Italian prison looking "glamous" through the bars.

        Btw I think Elmo Hope's "Informal Jazz" LP had an original sleeve with Elmo posing stark naked except for a strategically placed metronome. Now a VERY expensive collector's item. (I made this up)
        Last edited by BLUESNIK'S REVOX; 06-06-20, 07:55.

        Comment

        • Joseph K
          Banned
          • Oct 2017
          • 7765

          #5
          Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post
          "I am not sure I want to see a musician I admire wearing a micro-mini or a crop top."

          Which outfits would you suggest instead? Which Pose, which Vogue, to, er, "reinforce the credibility of the music enclosed within"..... You have some experience as a stylist? I mean, just to ensure she avoids offending muso taste and respectability in future...

          OK so - I guess you want Connie in something like this......
          yohji yamamoto black dress
          ...preferably bespectacled, serious, deep in practice or score-study......nothing expressing pleasure, ​let alone anything ​female or powerful.....

          Poor Connie Han.... seems destined for the same tragic neglected obscurity as.... Yuja Wang....

          ***

          "I think the most "provocative" sleeve I have seen in the last five years is by saxophonist Roxy Cross but it you have a name that makes you sound like a porn actress , I suppose that comes with the territory. Mc Cross album was very much wrapped up in the #MeToo movement, so you could say it was ironic, even if the excessive tattoos made it look like she had stumbled out off a nightclub in Newcastle."

          God, you still don't get it. Comments like this are are exactly why the #MeToo movement had to happen.
          (Spelling her name right would be a start....)

          Comment

          • Ian Thumwood
            Full Member
            • Dec 2010
            • 4223

            #6
            Who is exploiting who, though?

            I just think that this is really an extremely poor marketing decision. The album cover has nothing to do with expressing Han's power it is all to do with sales. It strikes me as a bad choice by Mack Avenue to pursue this route, not only for her future development but also because I think it will backfire amongst jazz fans, most of whom are doing to be middle aged blokes. A lot of them will have daughters the same as a Miss Han. I would have to say that the album cover would put me off buying this record regardless of the fact the music might be really good. I just would not want that kind of album sleeve in my collection - not when there is plenty of other jazz out there that could be better and isn't trying to tell me that I should buy it because the artist has a nice pair of legs! The cover is giving the impression that the music is superficial.

            To be honest, I am not interested in what an artist looks like. All I am interested is the music. If you want to bring in the #metoo movement (if it is still going), I don't think that tis kind of album cover helps, to be honest. Given that most jazz fans are likely to be Left-leaning anyway, I don't really see what bearing this has. In the case of Coss, it just strikes me as a second -rate artist trying to get attention at a time when CD sales are going through the floor. Jumping on #metoo was just as cynical - say one thing but do another, anything to promote a Smooth Jazz record. Of course, musicians are welcome to wear what they wish but in responding to JLW's comments, how do you know she chose to wear those outfits? You are jumping to conclusions. If you add the fact that her website offers you the chance to buy autographed copies of the same, I am strongly inclined to take a cynical view in this.

            As Bluesniks says, sex sales. My issue is if the music is any good, it should stand own it's own too feet without resorting to these tactics. If you want to take a more strident line, I don't feel that this kind of approach really respects the tradition and heritage of the music. I hope it isn't a sign of future developments with labels signing artists depending on how good they look in a miniskirt as opposed to what they can play and then perhaps dropping them as soon as they gain a few pounds. Strangely, I had "Playboys" on my turntable on Thursday and had forgotten about that cover, although I would add that the photo was of neither Chet Baker nor Art Pepper. This disc is about 65 years old but I suppose still plays on the same trope even if the motivations were probably different. I have always wondered how the artists felt when their work was incumbered with covers like this. I know Miles managed to successfully get "Miles Ahead" cover changed. I guess that the Chet Baker album cover was a one off. It has always struck me as being amusing because whoever devised it had a sense of humour and maybe was being ironic regarding the music inside.

            Picking up on Joe's comment about image, outside of pop, I cannot think of any other style of music where image or the way the music is presented is so significant. This has been apparent throughout the music's history started to manifest itself in the Twenties before really getting it's game together in the 1930s. By the time that Herman Leonard had chronicled jazz and Reid Miles was producing his classic Blue Note covers, the die was irrevocably cast. The better jazz labels all try to cultivate an identity or "house style", whether it be Blue Notes, ECM, Smoke Sessions, CrissCross or Impulse. They are all pretty distinctive. The samples from Han's record show that she can play and has assembled a decent band. I would have admired her more if Mack Avenue had produced a more sober cover and let the music speak. Instead, it is blatantly obvious that Mack Avenue are sexualising her appearance knowing that a 24 year old from an Asian background is going to generate interest from outside the music. Compare and contrast with bassist Linda Oh whose background is not too dissimilar but is widely respected as a bassist and composer without resorting to Han's marketing model. Got to say that I am more inclined to pick up one of LO's records as , trough hard graft, she has demonstrated that she is the real deal.

            I just find that approach to marketing this record a little disappointing.

            Comment

            • Joseph K
              Banned
              • Oct 2017
              • 7765

              #7
              Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post
              Who is exploiting who, though?

              I just think that this is really an extremely poor marketing decision. The album cover has nothing to do with expressing Han's power it is all to do with sales. It strikes me as a bad choice by Mack Avenue to pursue this route, not only for her future development but also because I think it will backfire amongst jazz fans, most of whom are doing to be middle aged blokes. A lot of them will have daughters the same as a Miss Han. I would have to say that the album cover would put me off buying this record regardless of the fact the music might be really good. I just would not want that kind of album sleeve in my collection - not when there is plenty of other jazz out there that could be better and isn't trying to tell me that I should buy it because the artist has a nice pair of legs! The cover is giving the impression that the music is superficial.

              To be honest, I am not interested in what an artist looks like. All I am interested is the music. If you want to bring in the #metoo movement (if it is still going), I don't think that tis kind of album cover helps, to be honest. Given that most jazz fans are likely to be Left-leaning anyway, I don't really see what bearing this has. In the case of Coss, it just strikes me as a second -rate artist trying to get attention at a time when CD sales are going through the floor. Jumping on #metoo was just as cynical - say one thing but do another, anything to promote a Smooth Jazz record. Of course, musicians are welcome to wear what they wish but in responding to JLW's comments, how do you know she chose to wear those outfits? You are jumping to conclusions. If you add the fact that her website offers you the chance to buy autographed copies of the same, I am strongly inclined to take a cynical view in this.

              As Bluesniks says, sex sales. My issue is if the music is any good, it should stand own it's own too feet without resorting to these tactics. If you want to take a more strident line, I don't feel that this kind of approach really respects the tradition and heritage of the music. I hope it isn't a sign of future developments with labels signing artists depending on how good they look in a miniskirt as opposed to what they can play and then perhaps dropping them as soon as they gain a few pounds. Strangely, I had "Playboys" on my turntable on Thursday and had forgotten about that cover, although I would add that the photo was of neither Chet Baker nor Art Pepper. This disc is about 65 years old but I suppose still plays on the same trope even if the motivations were probably different. I have always wondered how the artists felt when their work was incumbered with covers like this. I know Miles managed to successfully get "Miles Ahead" cover changed. I guess that the Chet Baker album cover was a one off. It has always struck me as being amusing because whoever devised it had a sense of humour and maybe was being ironic regarding the music inside.

              Picking up on Joe's comment about image, outside of pop, I cannot think of any other style of music where image or the way the music is presented is so significant. This has been apparent throughout the music's history started to manifest itself in the Twenties before really getting it's game together in the 1930s. By the time that Herman Leonard had chronicled jazz and Reid Miles was producing his classic Blue Note covers, the die was irrevocably cast. The better jazz labels all try to cultivate an identity or "house style", whether it be Blue Notes, ECM, Smoke Sessions, CrissCross or Impulse. They are all pretty distinctive. The samples from Han's record show that she can play and has assembled a decent band. I would have admired her more if Mack Avenue had produced a more sober cover and let the music speak. Instead, it is blatantly obvious that Mack Avenue are sexualising her appearance knowing that a 24 year old from an Asian background is going to generate interest from outside the music. Compare and contrast with bassist Linda Oh whose background is not too dissimilar but is widely respected as a bassist and composer without resorting to Han's marketing model. Got to say that I am more inclined to pick up one of LO's records as , trough hard graft, she has demonstrated that she is the real deal.

              I just find that approach to marketing this record a little disappointing.


              'I am not interested in what an artist looks like. All I am interested is the music.' - if this is really the case, why did you start this thread criticising a female artist's choice of raiment?

              ' If you want to bring in the #metoo movement '

              … it was you who originally invoked it.


              'Of course, musicians are welcome to wear what they wish but in responding to JLW's comments, how do you know she chose to wear those outfits? You are jumping to conclusions'

              … and you are jumping to the opposite conclusion! Honestly, if someone is that formidable on the piano, surely the conclusion to draw is that it was her decision? But: why does this concern you when you said that you don't care what an artist looks like?

              'My issue is if the music is any good, it should stand own it's own too feet without resorting to these tactics. If you want to take a more strident line, I don't feel that this kind of approach really respects the tradition and heritage of the music.'

              … what kind of clothes should a person wear which respects the tradition of the music, pray tell? (Despite its purported complete irrelevance).

              'I would have admired her more if Mack Avenue had produced a more sober cover and let the music speak.'

              … sorry but I find this baffling. Is there some weird connection you experience between your eyes and ears, where arousal of the former brings about a muffling of the latter? Is there some sort of priapic deafening you experience??

              Comment

              • BLUESNIK'S REVOX
                Full Member
                • Dec 2010
                • 4314

                #8
                Point being I don't think jazz has ever embraced overtly sexualised marketing. Despite the "of their era" attempts by Contemporary etc to sell the Playboy demographic and the marketing of Chet as James Dean, "Jazz" typically rejected all that, unlike pop. Abbey Lincoln being a prime example, sold at the very first as a kind of 50's sex bomb, and then with Max Roach embracing a very different style and philosophy. But that was "then"....

                Comment

                • Joseph K
                  Banned
                  • Oct 2017
                  • 7765

                  #9
                  Originally posted by BLUESNIK'S REVOX View Post
                  Point being I don't think jazz has ever embraced overtly sexualised marketing. Despite the "of their era" attempts by Contemporary etc to sell the Playboy demographic and the marketing of Chet as James Dean, "Jazz" typically rejected all that, unlike pop. Abbey Lincoln being a prime example, sold at the very first as a kind of 50's sex bomb, and then with Max Roach embracing a very different style and philosophy. But that was "then"....
                  What's this thing, 'jazz' ? Oh I know - it's music, not marketing.

                  Comment

                  • CGR
                    Full Member
                    • Aug 2016
                    • 370

                    #10
                    If it sells her CD then good for her.

                    Just had a listen. It's Ok.

                    Comment

                    • CGR
                      Full Member
                      • Aug 2016
                      • 370

                      #11
                      It seems to have got to light classical music as well !!!

                      Comment

                      • BLUESNIK'S REVOX
                        Full Member
                        • Dec 2010
                        • 4314

                        #12
                        Originally posted by CGR View Post
                        It seems to have got to light classical music as well !!!

                        John Coltrane would *never* have worn a dress like that. Not even in private. Time to stop the rot, all (jazz) women should wear Italian three button two piece mohair suits and button down shirts. If they want to wear skirts, take up tennis.

                        Comment

                        • jayne lee wilson
                          Banned
                          • Jul 2011
                          • 10711

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post
                          Who is exploiting who, though?

                          I just think that this is really an extremely poor marketing decision. The album cover has nothing to do with expressing Han's power it is all to do with sales. It strikes me as a bad choice by Mack Avenue to pursue this route, not only for her future development but also because I think it will backfire amongst jazz fans, most of whom are doing to be middle aged blokes. A lot of them will have daughters the same as a Miss Han. I would have to say that the album cover would put me off buying this record regardless of the fact the music might be really good. I just would not want that kind of album sleeve in my collection - not when there is plenty of other jazz out there that could be better and isn't trying to tell me that I should buy it because the artist has a nice pair of legs! The cover is giving the impression that the music is superficial.

                          To be honest, I am not interested in what an artist looks like. All I am interested is the music. If you want to bring in the #metoo movement (if it is still going), I don't think that tis kind of album cover helps, to be honest. Given that most jazz fans are likely to be Left-leaning anyway, I don't really see what bearing this has. In the case of Coss, it just strikes me as a second -rate artist trying to get attention at a time when CD sales are going through the floor. Jumping on #metoo was just as cynical - say one thing but do another, anything to promote a Smooth Jazz record. Of course, musicians are welcome to wear what they wish but in responding to JLW's comments, how do you know she chose to wear those outfits? You are jumping to conclusions. If you add the fact that her website offers you the chance to buy autographed copies of the same, I am strongly inclined to take a cynical view in this.

                          As Bluesniks says, sex sales. My issue is if the music is any good, it should stand own it's own too feet without resorting to these tactics. If you want to take a more strident line, I don't feel that this kind of approach really respects the tradition and heritage of the music. I hope it isn't a sign of future developments with labels signing artists depending on how good they look in a miniskirt as opposed to what they can play and then perhaps dropping them as soon as they gain a few pounds. Strangely, I had "Playboys" on my turntable on Thursday and had forgotten about that cover, although I would add that the photo was of neither Chet Baker nor Art Pepper. This disc is about 65 years old but I suppose still plays on the same trope even if the motivations were probably different. I have always wondered how the artists felt when their work was incumbered with covers like this. I know Miles managed to successfully get "Miles Ahead" cover changed. I guess that the Chet Baker album cover was a one off. It has always struck me as being amusing because whoever devised it had a sense of humour and maybe was being ironic regarding the music inside.

                          Picking up on Joe's comment about image, outside of pop, I cannot think of any other style of music where image or the way the music is presented is so significant. This has been apparent throughout the music's history started to manifest itself in the Twenties before really getting it's game together in the 1930s. By the time that Herman Leonard had chronicled jazz and Reid Miles was producing his classic Blue Note covers, the die was irrevocably cast. The better jazz labels all try to cultivate an identity or "house style", whether it be Blue Notes, ECM, Smoke Sessions, CrissCross or Impulse. They are all pretty distinctive. The samples from Han's record show that she can play and has assembled a decent band. I would have admired her more if Mack Avenue had produced a more sober cover and let the music speak. Instead, it is blatantly obvious that Mack Avenue are sexualising her appearance knowing that a 24 year old from an Asian background is going to generate interest from outside the music. Compare and contrast with bassist Linda Oh whose background is not too dissimilar but is widely respected as a bassist and composer without resorting to Han's marketing model. Got to say that I am more inclined to pick up one of LO's records as , trough hard graft, she has demonstrated that she is the real deal.

                          I just find that approach to marketing this record a little disappointing.
                          So many words..... but - FFS, you play YET again into the "poor, weak female, taking orders from (supposedly male, or male-gaze power internalised stereotypes etc bloody etc) to tell her what to do. So despite her evident creative achievements, she can't decide for herself what to wear and how to market?

                          ​So just who is jumping to conclusions here? You have privileged access to Han's inner life? No - you just think you do because (at least in the context of this discussion) you are unreconstuctedly male. It is up to you to let the music speak without being distracted by Han's appearance.

                          But you're probably nicer in person. We'd probably find much in common sharing a drink. We'd "discuss it for 20 minutes, then decide that I was right."
                          As Brian Clough once said.
                          Last edited by jayne lee wilson; 06-06-20, 16:02.

                          Comment

                          • jayne lee wilson
                            Banned
                            • Jul 2011
                            • 10711

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Joseph K View Post


                            'I am not interested in what an artist looks like. All I am interested is the music.' - if this is really the case, why did you start this thread criticising a female artist's choice of raiment?

                            ' If you want to bring in the #metoo movement '

                            … it was you who originally invoked it.


                            'Of course, musicians are welcome to wear what they wish but in responding to JLW's comments, how do you know she chose to wear those outfits? You are jumping to conclusions'

                            … and you are jumping to the opposite conclusion! Honestly, if someone is that formidable on the piano, surely the conclusion to draw is that it was her decision? But: why does this concern you when you said that you don't care what an artist looks like?

                            'My issue is if the music is any good, it should stand own it's own too feet without resorting to these tactics. If you want to take a more strident line, I don't feel that this kind of approach really respects the tradition and heritage of the music.'

                            … what kind of clothes should a person wear which respects the tradition of the music, pray tell? (Despite its purported complete irrelevance).

                            'I would have admired her more if Mack Avenue had produced a more sober cover and let the music speak.'

                            … sorry but I find this baffling. Is there some weird connection you experience between your eyes and ears, where arousal of the former brings about a muffling of the latter? Is there some sort of priapic deafening you experience??

                            Comment

                            • Ian Thumwood
                              Full Member
                              • Dec 2010
                              • 4223

                              #15
                              Originally posted by jayne lee wilson View Post
                              So many words..... but - FFS, you play YET again int the "poor, weak female, taking orders from (supposedly male, or male-gaze power internalised stereotypes etc bloody etc..., to tell her what to do. So despite her evident creative achievements, she can't decide for herself what to wear and how to market?

                              ​So just who is jumping to conclusions here? You have privileged access to Han's inner life? No - you just think you do because (at least in the context of this discussion) you are unreconstuctedly male. It is up to you to let the music speak without being distracted by Han's appearance.

                              But you're probably nicer in person. We'd probably find much in common sharing a drink. We'd "discuss it for 20 minutes, then decide that I was right."
                              As Brian Clough once said.
                              Got to say that Bluesniks summed it up perfectly. Coltrane never needed to wear a short skirt to sell records.

                              I think your argument is flawed. The album cover is just a marketing ploy. I have no interest in what Han looks like as I only buy records for the music. It does detract from the message inside and although you are correct that I do not know Han's motivation for what she has taken that route (her earlier album is similar), you can also get the message that a bit of flesh will enhance sales.

                              Unlike classical music where it is about interpretation, jazz is about the musician expressing their personality. If you like, jazz musicians are wearing their hearts on their sleeve. It has nothing to do with being unreconstructed. You are interpreting the album cover to suit your agenda but she could just as easily have been exploited by the marketing executives. The point that you have failed to recognise is my question as to who is the album supposed to appeal. Is it a presentation of per own personality or is this a cynical ploy to market the record. As I said, most people buying jazz records are going to be middle-aged blokes such as myself. Furthermore, the images are appearing on a CD which, again, it going to be something that appeals to an older demographic. It just reinforces my perception that the pitch of this CD is totally wrong.

                              I have no problem looking at attractive women, regardless if you want to consider me to be unreconstructed. However, the issue is clear cut. The whole concept in which Miss Han is being marketed is diametrically opposed to the kind of mindset of people buying jazz records. Most people listening to jazz have no real interest in colour or gender as it is about the music. I just find it uncomfortable with jazz records being marketed like this .

                              No doubt Cloughie would have liked the photo..

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