Third Stream jazz in the 21st Century

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  • Ian Thumwood
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 4164

    Third Stream jazz in the 21st Century

    For the last week I have been giving Christophe Dal Sasso's new record "Pretexte" as spin in the car. I much admire his work for the Belmondo Brother's which is a blend of French Impressionism and Ellingtonia. His own recordings again demonstrate that he is one of the best writers for woodwinds in jazz today but lean far more heavily towards the kind of "Third Stream" jazz that was popular in the late 50's by artists such as Gunther Schuller and George Russell. I don't think he has a particular individual theory but there is a sense in much of his work of using a motif or idea as a point of reference for developing the writing. i.e. He does not use melodies and relies on figures which seem to align is music more towards the kind of sounds familiar to those who have checked out more atonal composers from the mid-20th Century. There are also pieces like "Morning Sound" where he is exploring rhythm.

    What is interesting is the way that his groups seem totally savvy with regard to contemporary jazz with a few, latter tracks also employing a fender rhodes to add to the tonal palette. I think the slower pieces are far more succeessful albeit Dal Sasso definately shys away from up-tempo arrangements. It is an interesting listen even if best taken at one track at a time as the music seems only to switch between the angular, atonal compositions and the lusher, more impressionistic ones.

    Listening to this set me thinking that the Third Stream jazz was particularly of it's era and what was once a radical decision to opt for a more formal, "Classical" approach to arrangement has very much been absorbed by the mainstream to be a vital ingredient in the jazz of today. The previous message board seemed to dedictae a lot of energy to discussing the likes of Braxton and George Lewis who might be considered the logical heirs to Russell, etc but Dal Sasso must be one of the most faithful adherents to the original mantra. The orchestra is pretty good and very typical of the French tendancy to look outside the US for inspiration (there is an African feel to "Morning Sound") yet I can't help thinking what this music would sound like if performed by a crack, New York ensemble with more spary soloists. Dal Sasso's previous record with his former teacher, Dave Liebman, suggests that the charts are an effective spring-board for world class soloists.

    Here's a clip of a recent gig at the Duc des Lonmbards club where they perform music from the CD. Dal Sasso is the flautist on the left, at the front:-


  • aka Calum Da Jazbo
    Late member
    • Nov 2010
    • 9173

    #2
    ...and James Carter's new Caribbean Rhapsody looks interesting too Ian

    During the early 1990's a young saxophonist from Detroit, Michigan came to New York City with dream and a vision to become one of the most noted and hardwork...


    This collaboration between sax virtuoso James Carter and classical composer Roberto Sierra is a stylish success, writes John Fordham


    James Carter: James Carter: Caribbean Rhapsody album review by C. Michael Bailey, published on May 26, 2011. Find thousands jazz reviews at All About Jazz!
    Last edited by aka Calum Da Jazbo; 23-07-11, 10:15. Reason: further reference
    According to the best estimates of astronomers there are at least one hundred billion galaxies in the observable universe.

    Comment

    • Quarky
      Full Member
      • Dec 2010
      • 2657

      #3
      The clip was interesting and I will give it some further listening time and consideration.

      But what I really want to say, which just about fits into this thread, is that listening to Jazz Record Requests, BIG BANDS SHOULD BE BANNED. THEY HAVE OUTLIVED THEIR USEFULNESS AND JUST CREATE SELF INDULGENT LOUD NOISES - THAD JONES AND GILL EVANS INCLUDED

      Early Count Basie, Duke Ellington, Bennie Goodman and some other bands from the swing era - fine and dandy. But that was a bygone era.

      I can't see the cause of Jazz being advanced in the current day by these leviathan-like associations.

      Comment

      • John Wright
        Full Member
        • Mar 2007
        • 705

        #4
        Maybe it's time that some modern music didn't call itself jazz!
        - - -

        John W

        Comment

        • Serial_Apologist
          Full Member
          • Dec 2010
          • 37628

          #5
          Originally posted by John Wright View Post
          Maybe it's time that some modern music didn't call itself jazz!
          Well this has been argued since the '60s at the very least - some sections of the black community in America considering the jazz term demeaning of the music.

          S-A

          Comment

          • Ian Thumwood
            Full Member
            • Dec 2010
            • 4164

            #6
            Oddball

            I think your statement is complete rubbish. In fact, I think that the opposite is more the case as I really feel that it is through writing that jazz will develop in the future decades. I love the early big bands as much as anyone but it is abundantly clear to my ears that the likes of Ellington, Spike Hughes, Eddie Sauter, etc were hearing possibilities within big band music as early as the 30's that the music could evolve to take on apsects of more formal, European writing in the case of the latter two or a uniquely American approach as was the case with Ellington. The comment about "self indulgent load noise" is , of course, subjective and could equally apply to the likes of Wagner or Bruckner.

            The kind of jazz that I find to be exciting and fills me with confidence for the future of the music these days is frequently played by big bands such as Bob Brookmeyer, John Hollenbeck, Maria Schnieder and James Darcy Argue. Elements of contemporary classical music have been absorbed along with other influences to produce results that I was suggest represent some of the most original jazz being performed at the moment. Eslewhere, bands led by the likes of Gerald Wilson continue to work very much within the tradition of Basie and Ellington yet , at the same time, bristle with today's soloists. Wilson, in my opinion, is a prime example of why this form of jazz remains so potent after all these years. Earlier in the month, I caught a French big band at a jazz festival which essentially eclipsed everything else, including Herbie Hancock and Sonny Rollins. It was this band which the fans in the street were all eagerly discussing and their second gig in a small venue attracted a large and extremely partisan crowd.

            I wouldn't describe the clip I posted either self indulgent or loud. It is obviously a million miles away from the kind of swing that Benny Goodman and Count Basie produced but that was nearly 80 years ago and the music has moved on, even if I set aside my enthusiasm for the fantastic records that Basie recorded in the 30's and 40's. Dal Sasso#s band is a14-peice group and hardly leviathan by anyone's understanding of the word.

            Comment

            • burning dog
              Full Member
              • Dec 2010
              • 1510

              #7
              I thikn the negative connotations of the word Jazz is a slightly different issue, as those that object would probably concede there is a continuum from Jelly Roll Morton to Albert Ayler.

              The recent argument seems to be that Jazz has moved outside of this, it lacks something that makes it Jazz.

              Some at the time thought the Hot Sevens moved away from 'real' Jazz

              I think a lot of free improv, especially the European kind, is not jazz and a lot of the practitioners say the same, but what of it? The audiences overlap and they often play at Jazz venues.

              Comment

              • MarkG
                Full Member
                • Apr 2011
                • 119

                #8
                I've enjoyed some of Bob Brookmeyer's recent work for big band and jazz orchestra. It was his interesting to hear some of his comments on Jazz Library, if I recall, suggesting that many modern big bands have forgotten how to swing.

                Comment

                • burning dog
                  Full Member
                  • Dec 2010
                  • 1510

                  #9
                  . I'm not sure what constitutes a "Big Band" nowadays as I associate the phrase with section playing rather than the number of musicians.
                  How about Orchestral jazz as a description? Didn't Ellington and Strayhorn write some of that? Or does that make you all think of Paul Whiteman? Not much real jazz in that instance.

                  Comment

                  • Tom Audustus

                    #10
                    Not impressed. The first part of the video sounds like an amateurish chamber orchestra in a rehearsal run-through of a new piece. The second half was better but I agree with Oddball about big bands - well past their sell by date.

                    Comment

                    • aka Calum Da Jazbo
                      Late member
                      • Nov 2010
                      • 9173

                      #11
                      alas not too taken by the Del Sasso but let's not throw babies with the bathwater ... big bands are an essential element for the development of jazz artists [e.g. listen to Jarrett talking about his teen years on Jon3] and the local school has a stonkingly good standard section big band that is loadsa fun and challenging ... however i would not want to rest any case in favour of big bands on the so called BBC Big Band which exemplifies the problems with them, they are too easily noisy wooden and boring ...

                      Brookmeyer has been noted Maria Scneider, Hollenbeck Solal all write for large ensembles ...

                      the thread is about third stream though and i for one would love to hear what Kenny Wheeler could make of Purcell ....
                      According to the best estimates of astronomers there are at least one hundred billion galaxies in the observable universe.

                      Comment

                      • Serial_Apologist
                        Full Member
                        • Dec 2010
                        • 37628

                        #12
                        Originally posted by aka Calum Da Jazbo View Post
                        the thread is about third stream though and i for one would love to hear what Kenny Wheeler could make of Purcell ....
                        Washes whiter?

                        Comment

                        • aka Calum Da Jazbo
                          Late member
                          • Nov 2010
                          • 9173

                          #13
                          this would fit Schuller's definiti9on of third stream

                          and Take Five is now a hit
                          According to the best estimates of astronomers there are at least one hundred billion galaxies in the observable universe.

                          Comment

                          • John Wright
                            Full Member
                            • Mar 2007
                            • 705

                            #14
                            Cool. I did catch the end of it the other night on TV, now listened all through. Tabla brill, even the little solo matched the solo on the Brubeck.

                            Now a hit? I think you'll find Take Five was a hit (charted) first time round!
                            - - -

                            John W

                            Comment

                            • Quarky
                              Full Member
                              • Dec 2010
                              • 2657

                              #15
                              "Third Stream jazz was particularly of it's era and what was once a radical decision to opt for a more formal, "Classical" approach to arrangement has very much been absorbed by the mainstream to be a vital ingredient in the jazz of today".

                              You are quite right Ian, I was speaking absolute rubbish.

                              But there are big bands and there are big bands. And the big bands I heard on JRR last Saturday seemed to me self indulgent.

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