New proper box set - serge chaloff

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Serge Chaloff - Boss Baritone

"This new 79 track, 4 CD boxed set is dedicated to the greatest baritone sax player of all time Serge Chaloff. The set traces Chaloff's early career in 1946 through to his last session in 1957 which was just prior to is untimely death at the age of 33. All of the Properbox hallmarks are here, maximum playing times, remastered recordings, booklet with fiull story and discography. "

So it prob includes the Capitol "Blue Serge" Qrt session with Sonny Clerk, Leroy V and Philly JJ. A VERY WONDERFUL record, esp the two ballads.

BN.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

indeeed it do el Senor Blues!

Serge Chaloff Quartet: Serge Chaloff, bs; Sonny Clark, p; Leroy Vinnegar, b; Philly Joe Jones, d.

Los Angeles, March 16, 1956



15153 I’VE GOT THE WORLD ON A STRING

15154 THANKS FOR THE MEMORY

15155 THE GOOF AND I

15156 SUSIE’S BLUES

15157 A HANDFUL OF STARS

15249 ALL THE THINGS YOU ARE

15250 STAIRWAY TO THE STARS

discog

about £17 on amazon or £4-20 a cd

[handsomefortune]

great value, what a bargain.

[Ian Thumwood]

[QUOTE=BLUESNIK'S REVOX;69249]Serge Chaloff - Boss Baritone

"This new 79 track, 4 CD boxed set is dedicated to the greatest baritone sax player of all time Serge Chaloff. The set traces Chaloff's early career in 1946 through to his last session in 1957 which was just prior to is untimely death at the age of 33. All of the Properbox hallmarks are here, maximum playing times, remastered recordings, booklet with fiull story and discography. "

I must admit being quite staggered that this box set should bill Chaloff as the greatest baritone player of all time. Given that he died over fifty years ago, I think that he was quickly eclipsed by a succession of more modern player such as Hamiet Bluiett, John Surman, the exeptional James Carter or even the likes of the ubiquitous Gary Smulyan. Although I have not heard a great deal by Chaloff (he is largely familiar to me through his work with Woody Herman), the clip below is pretty good (how could you sound bad with that band backing you?) but certainly nothing to give someone like Harry Carney sleepness nights. Chaloff is badly out of time in his first unaccompanied break. To anyone coming to jazz from a recent generation, Chaloff must seem extremely obscure these days and perhaps doesn't quite enjoy the same kind of reputation he had when he was still alive.

The whole Boston scene of the 1950's seems to be extremely obscure these days - almost a Modern Jazz equivalent of the 1930's Territory Bands where some pretty impressive music was committed to wax away from the main jazz centres of places like New York, Chicargo or New Orleans. For me, Richard Twardzik remains the most interesting character and I would guess that his work with Chaloff must be included in the 4-CD set. Judging from the track listing, there is also a tranche of Herman material plus tracks that look like they must have been made by sidemen from this band which was then very much at it's prime.

I'm always a bit unsure about Proper. When the label first materialised, they released alot of classic recordings from the 1940's although the tracks were not always that well re-mastered. There is also a tendancy to include a large proportion of sub-standard material so that discs by the likes of Lionel Hampton, Jay McShann or Memphis Minnie would probably benefit from a good deal of pruning to remove those tracks with ropey vocals, novelty numbers or the throw-away Bop numbers that manifested the lower echelons of the pioneers of Be-bop of the Charlie Ventura variety, etc. (I've a similar kind of double CD by Gene Ammons which includes some real turkeys amongst the treasures onm the Paraphenalia label. ) This can be annoying when better tracks are missing - as is the case with "Hoenysuckle Rose" by Basie's 1930's band. There is something electric about the best Be-bop of the 1940's that is hugely compelling yet the lesser efforts can, by contrast, seem as formulaic as some of the Swing bands they allege to have surpassed. The poor audio quality in many instances does not help.

[gurnemanz]

Speaking of great baritonists, the Gerry Mulligan Proper Box, Jeru, is very good with a lot of Chet Baker. Of current players I only really know John Surman. I first heard him about 40 years ago at a pub in Redhill and then again 30 years ago at the Arnolfini in Bristol. My wife was heavily pregnant and our daughter was jumping around like crazy inside. (I have since told her that Surman's sax was the first music to get her going) I have couple of excellent ECM albums. I think the Serge Chaloff might be a box too far for me.

.

[Ian Thumwood]

Gurnemanz


Have you heard this record?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Concert-Jazz-Band-First-Album/dp/B004GE80TE/ref=sr_1_2?s=music&ie=UTF8&qid=1311403356&sr=1-2

The recordings by Mulligan's Concert Jazz Band were similarly re-released this year and my sister bought the first volume as as Father's Day present for my Dad. This is a really good record and far better than his work with the over-rated quartet with Chet Baker. This was a great band and, I suppose, you can still here how influencial it was in recordings by the likes of contemporary arrangers such as Maria Schneider. To my ears, Mulligan was an ever better arranger than the wonderful soloist he could be when on form. There is a later record called "Walk on the water " from 1980's which is also worth looking out for because of the quality of the writing as well, if I am correct from memory, as includint the brilliant Tom Harrell on trumpet.

[Serial_Apologist]

There's still to this day a school of jazz criticism which does not consider anything of true worth to have been done after avbout 1959. To this school one has to concede that possibly between 1945 and 1959 there was no baritone saxophonist BETTER than Serge Chaloff. I remember Charles Fox playing an utterly amazing big band track from 1954 with Chaloff, Charlie Mariano and Twardzik in the line-up, titled "The Fable of Mabel". Atonal and polytonal harmony, incredible timbres and spacing - avant-garde way ahead of its time. If that and any other recordings by that particular line-up are among the abovementioned collection, it would almost be worth having for them alone.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

here yer go

The Serge Chaloff Orchestra: Herb Pomeroy, Nick Capazutto, tp; Gene Di Stachio, tb; Charlie Mariano, as; Varty Haritounian, ts; Serge Chaloff, bs; Dick Twardzik, p; Ray Oliveri, b; Jimmy Zitano, d.

Boston, September 1954

THE FABLE OF MABEL

THE FABLE OF MABEL (take 2)

THE FABLE OF MABEL (take 3)

SHERRY

SLAM

A SALUTE TO TINY

A SALUTE TO TINY (take 2)

EENIE MEENIE MINOR MODE

EENIE MEENIE MINOR MODE (take 2)



Herb Pomeroy, tp; Charlie Mariano, as; Serge Chaloff, bs; Dick Twardzik, p; Ray Oliveri, b; Jimmy Zitano, d.

Boston, September 1954



LET’S JUMP

LET’S JUMP (take 2)

methinks Ian is on his jazz before i was born is overrated kick .... the bop years sounded like Chaloff, or Alan Eager or Oscar Pettiford and his Manhattan jazzers ... as well as Parker Gillespie Monk and Powell ... Chaloff was highly regarded when i was a lad ...

[Ian Thumwood]

Calum

No at all. My point is rather that Chaloff doesn't enjoy the reputation he once had. From that era, Mulligan remains the baritone saxophonist that dominates his generation. The circumstances of Chaloff's death through cancer seem to have contributed to his reputation as a doomed generation and the associations with Twardzik and Baker only add to this impression. In some respects, Chaloff is almost a forgotten name - as I said earlier, my familiarity largely stems from his contributions to Herman's Second Herd. Can't ever remember these Chaloff recordings being available when I was growing up listening to jazz even if he was a name I had read about and can recollect hearing "Blue Serge" being played on JRR when I was a teenager.

It was this kind of recording where I was previously most familiar with Chaloff. Amazing how tight this ensemble was:-

https:///http://www.youtube.com/watc...eature=related

In response to SA's comment, there is equally a school who are unlikley to have listened to any jazz prior to Miles' "Kind of Blue." In the case of Chaloff, the music is nearly sixty years old and it is not too surprising that he probably isn't as well known as he should be.

When you look back at the Be-bop generation, it is definately the case that the likes of Bird, Monk and Dizzy stand out as superior as is deservedly the case. This is music for all time. I would also agree with players like Pettiford, Tristano, Norvo's trio, etc. I think the problem rests with some of the players who followed in their wake who probably occupy the same position as the now obscure names who sat in the soloist's chairs with the great jazz big bands of the thrities. Not too familiar with Allen Eager either, but he is precisely the kind of "average" player I would have in mind - someone who has been left behind by the passage of time. This would be a good example of what I mean. Ok-ish but I would rather have Lester Young spinning on my CD player. It is a bit leaden and doesn't particularly swing. Not a patch on the Chaloff sextet recording:-


https:///http://www.youtube.com/watc...eature=related

Chaloff is in danger of becoming like Crawford Wetherington or Jack Washington who enjoyed reputations as great baritone players in their time but are largely unknown these days. The problem with the criticism of the generation that emerged with the advent of Be-bop / Modern jazz is that it was seen as a clean break from the Swing Era and in many respects deemed to be superior. Whilst only an idiot would claim that the innovations with harmony, melody and rhythm did benefit jazz to it's considerable advantage, I wouldn't subscribe to the idea that it was all an improvement to what had gone before. There were still copyists, music that was totally unoriginal and predictable and artists whose work did not necessarily enhance jazz as an art form. I think that this is true of all a the movements in jazz from the 20's right through to today. In lesser hands, I think the be-bop of the 40's / 50's could be an uninvolving as anything else from previous or future generations.

On the evidence of these recordings, the music Chaloff performed seems very similar to alot of the West Coast jazz of the time albeit slightly chillier. The quality of writing is very good and it shares the quirkiness of the compositions of Twardzik which I also admire. Incidently, "Fable of Mabel" is a Twardzik tune. I really like this recording:-

/http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOcMtIdzvg0


With the passge of time, I don't think it is that easy to determine an actual "Boston" sound or school but the involvement of musicians like Mariano, Twardzik and Chaloff would make the jazz scene of Boston from that time a compelling edition of "Jazz Library."

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

..Ian you may need to check how you are formatting or copying links, can't get the links in your post to go anywhere but htp:com

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

GOSH! I didn't thik my "public interest" posting would promote such a response.

For those of you that haven't heard Serge's "Blue Serge" album it's really is an astonishing record with Chalof playing ballads with bursts of air, explosive bottom notes, emotion and pure melody. Exceptional...and MUCH admired by Surman in a R3 programme a few years back. As for the comparisons with Mulligan, well I'm a fan of both (and Pepper Adams who had a much more "dry" sound and hard drive). Leo Parker's two Bluenote albums are also tres bluesey, very enjoyable if a bit restrained. Ronnie Ross a la Trevor? And then there's Lars Gullin...Scaninavian jazz of that era is woefully unremarked today. Cept in my BIG house.

BN.

BTW listening to R2's Big band prog with half an ear last night, they played a late '58 track by the Gene Krupa Big Band (eh?) arranged by Gil Evans (Mulligan app. also did work for this outfit). GORGEOUS STUFF with Ernie Royal and Phil Woods. Quell suprise.

[Ian Thumwood]

Bluesnik

The Gene Krupa record in question is this one:-

https:///http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kru...1609981&sr=1-1

I must admit that I didn't catch the programme was was surprised that the track in question was a Gil Evans chart as I thought the record comprised of Mulligan arrangements only. Gil Evans was still a member of Claude Thornhill's band at the time and , although I know he provided some free-lance charts for a few, very obscure bands, I wasn't aware that Krupa was one of them. In the late 50's, Evans wrote scores for Benny Goodman when the clarinetist's band toured the USSR but they were never performed live as the leader felt they were too modern. A couple of Dameron arrangements of "Fontainbleu" and "Swift as the wind" did get recorded on the tour (which featured the likes of Zoot Sims, Joe Newman, etc, from recollection) and are generally much better played than when Dameron assembled a star-studded studio group himself. My guess is that Clare Teale was mistaken but I will have to check. Mulligan, however, did provide charts for other bands such as Elliot Lawrence and Miles Davis.


The" Krupa plays Mulligan" record is a revelation. I think that Mulligan's own work with larger ensembles is impressive and the possibility of his earlier, bop-inspired arrangements being interpreted by a leader who was very much associated with an earlier generation would be suggestive that the results could be a let down. Krupa's earlier work with big bands never greatly enthused me and a box set of 4 Lp's by them that my Uncle loaned me when I was getting into jazz as a teenager struck me as being very bizarre. The band seemed to be one that doggedly followed trends darting from swing charts, arrangements with a pretty suspicious string section and finally a flirtation with Bop by which time many of the big bands had started to sound stale or couldn't compete against the likes of Woody Herman whose groups were a cut above everyone else by this stage. Krupa's band of the 1940's just seems very average until you discover that Mulligan worked for him as an arranger. On top of this, the appeal of Krupa as a drummer has always eluded me - even when playing with the trio and quartet of Benny Goodman he was the weakest link and the group worked better when he was replaced with Dave Tough. Modern writers like Jeffrey Magee have also commented of the failings of the Goodman rhythm section of the late 30's to work as a team and how they lagged behind the reeds and brass. I think that this is something that almost made the bass and drums in this band redundant. It is easy to appreciate why someone like Krupa would fall of the radar if you are into more modern forms of jazz.

It is therefore startling to discover how good this Krupa band of the 50's was. The writing is fantastic and the soloists very muchof the modern-mainstream of their time. Many of these arrangements had previously never been recorded. As you state, Phil Woods sounds terrific but he is a player I always think has a sound which stands out in a large ensemble and makes the hair on the back of your neck stnd on end when he solo's. His work with Gil Evans on "Spoonful" is one of my favourite solos of all time. The piano duties are undertaken by Hank Jones and the line up includes other illustrious names like Jimmy Cleveland, Kai Winding, Urbie Green, Willie Dennis and Gary Galbraith. Even Krupa managed to shine, keeping very much in the background and nowhere as near as anachronistic as you might have imagined. On this record, I think you can definately appreciate his musicianship as opposed to the unabounded enthusiasm which is the best thing you can say about his earlier recordings. I've always loved this record and is something that anyone who love the cool, intelligent bop produced by groups such as the Miles Davis BotC band will quickly appreciate. There are sveral Mulligan originals and versions of Charlie Parker tues in addition to the reworking of old standardd. You can snap this disc for a pretty good price and I don't think it would be something that you would regret.

Hope that this helps.

Ian

[burning dog]

I've never heard that Krupa band before, sounds interesting.

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

if i recall aright Woods was a key part of the wonderful Quincy Jones Emarcy band in the 50s ... a stunning Midnight Sun solo ...

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

IAN ~ Many thanks for that. Yes, I misheard Ms Teal. That '58 arrangement was by Gerry Mulligan ("Only girl in the world") although Gil also wrote for the band. Stunning stuff indeed. Oddly a friend recently lent me a box of old b/w films and Krupa is featured (and tres sweaty) in "Ball of Fire" with Barbara Stanwych and Jimmy Stewart, playing "Drum Boogie" on a box of matches. Avec Roy Eldridge and the band. Of its time but great fun.

BN.

"The Krupa band, however," Mulligan recalls, "was the most professional band I'd ever written for. They were so professional they sometimes scared the hell out of me. They had no trouble playing anything I wrote. Having that skilled a unit to write for was a new and a challenging experience."