Woke Jazz movement

[Serial_Apologist]

A swerve away from Ian's topic perhaps, but for comparison, this is a much lauded YOUNG American female saxophonist, Matana Roberts from Chicago. She's had strong reviews and promotion from the New Yorker and the NYT and the Organissimo board seem enthusiastic. Here she is (alto) with Marc Ribot on acoustic guitar in 2013. I listened because I thought I should but... really? Me (aged15) and my mate used to do this "stuff" in the front room with a tape recorder and kid ourselves we were cool. Cmon, emperor's clothes?

http://youtu.be/W8wbZUa9kGs

Well that was at the tail end of a much longer recital, I imagine, and probably not representive of the whole gig. And not helped by the echoey acoustic. For me Matana is the real deal. But I had to turn off at the end because next in the sequence was Emerson, Lake & Palmer's version of Copland's "Fanfare for the Common Man". What system of algorhythms thought that up as my next choice FGS???

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Well that was at the tail end of a much longer recital, I imagine, and probably not representive of the whole gig. And not helped by the echoey acoustic. For me Matana is the real deal. But I had to turn off at the end because next in the sequence was Emerson, Lake & Palmer's version of Copland's "Fanfare for the Common Man". What system of algorhythms thought that up as my next choice FGS???

OK, I'll take your word and many others I respect. Obviously not for me! Wish I'd kept my front room tapes, could of made a fortune. "Rare BLUESNIK, you gotta hear this guy, he can barely play but he's already blowing minds (and Grundig tape decks)"
BN.

[Ian Thumwood]

I need a bit more time to read Ian's originally linked article, about which I'm feeling quite conflicted at the moment.

SA

I knew that you would find this article conflicting and it was the mischievous part of me that prompted me to post the link because the contents would be difficult for you to respond without contradicting some of your tenets. To be honest, I think your response will be different to mine because my interests stem from a more traditional appreciation of jazz and I can emphasise with some of the observations.

I would have to say that I do not like the idea of their being a "Woke" jazz movement and think that the music should be good enough to stand by it's own merits without having a label pinned on it. I would also add that I think the author was a bit fulsome in his praise and there is perhaps a degree of objectivity missing within it. That said, I do think that the interviews raise some points that jazz has often failed to address in the UK.

For me, the dilemma resolves around a lot around jazz education. I think we are in a time where technical prowess is a given and where you can got to most countries and find musicians with exceptional technique or even a "regional" or "cultural" approach to jazz which might have nothing to do with the Afro-American origins. However, you may share my feeling that the further you move from the template, the less viable it becomes as jazz whilst still being very credible Improvised music. Where I do have a lot of sympathy with the article is the way the understanding of jazz has been fostered by the likes of Gary Crosby outside of the universities and whether this somehow makes the music more "authentic." Part of my strongly concurs with this sentiment given that the universities have produced a stream of musicians with fantastic technique and ability but perhaps with very little to say. So, from this point of view, I am putting my thumbs up. In contrast, I would argue is this is such a good thing is the musicians involved are too intertwined with Rap / Garage / Hip-hop to the extent that the jazz content is diminished ? Does this approach produce a generation of musicians who are less technically equipped and maybe less interesting in respect of what they can achieve? I always think back to Courtney Pine's emergence around 1985 and when I first heard him with George Russell. Everyone was hugely excited by the prospect of this amazing talent yet the results in the intervening years have been inconsistent. I cannot believe anyone is listening "Journey to the urge within" in 2019.

I think the article does gloss over some divisions with the "Woke" jazz scene and it very uncritical. I have seen Shabacka Hutchings hold his own with Archie Shepp but them been bored senseless by his discs like "The comet is coming" which channels his inner Pharoah Sanders which was pretty limited in 1970 and maybe more so in 2017. The new disc has had indifferent reviews too. If the Woke Jazz" scene entails saxophonists screeching over two-chord vamps, I cannot see the progress in that. In contrast, Cassie Kinoshi's "Seed Ensemble" really appeals to me , maybe because it is someone who has the craftmanship to write new music for a larger ensemble. For me, this is the kind of jazz which is deserving of attention, especially if it can communicate in a fashion unlike some of the writing of her white contemporaries which comes across as worthy at best.

At best, the article offers an over-simplification and the true implications of any new movement will take 5-10 year assimilate because it can be dismissed as a flash in the pan like the F-ire collective. At best, the Woke Jazz scene is a much needed shot in the arm for British Jazz.

[Alyn_Shipton]

We Featured Matana Roberts on Jazz Now in 2016 in a session with Seb Rochford, which we shared with Late Junction. You missed us it seems when we were on, and you'll miss us even more when we're gone. Last Jazz Now on 23 Sept.

[Serial_Apologist]

We Featured Matana Roberts on Jazz Now in 2016 in a session with Seb Rochford, which we shared with Late Junction. You missed us it seems when we were on, and you'll miss us even more when we're gone. Last Jazz Now on 23 Sept.

I shall be very sorry to see Jazz Now go, but thanks for the notification Alyn. I did enjoy the two sessions of Seb and Matana - I mentioned at the time that they'd got hitched, and Seb had shed his locks!

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

The times I listened it was excellent. Presenters exemplary.The Dexter Gordon release and interviews etc. The quiet scepticism re Brantford Marsalis's verbal bollocks. But for me my lack of interest probably relates to my feeling about a lot of contemporary "jazz". Listening to Mark Turner for example just confirmed its lifeless rambling. And I'm still convinced Matana is trading on a wave of mutual stupidity. And I'm being polite.

[burning dog]

Ahem....

[burning dog]

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Excellent! Lightnin Strikes...

And here's where all the "Woke" people live...
Birthplace of Sir Paul Weller and with John Redwood for an MP...what could be more Woke-ier...

http://youtu.be/JhBfANESRcQ

[Ian Thumwood]

The times I listened it was excellent. Presenters exemplary.The Dexter Gordon release and interviews etc. The quiet scepticism re Brantford Marsalis's verbal bollocks. But for me my lack of interest probably relates to my feeling about a lot of contemporary "jazz". Listening to Mark Turner for example just confirmed its lifeless rambling. And I'm still convinced Matana is trading on a wave of mutual stupidity. And I'm being polite.

I must admit that I am on the fence regarding Mark Turner. He is on David Binney's "Barefoot town" along with Ambrose Akinmusire which I felt was a really interesting disc, Binney's writing offering an alternative to post-bop with a really distinctive compositional voice. Although Turner players tenor in this, his light tone often sounds like an alto. I always had him as a contemporary version of someone like Warne Marsh where you have to apply yourself to his playing to appreciate it. He is not to everyone's taste and I think Jaimie Branch was really scathing about his records in an interview a few years ago in what was a pretty bitchy comment. "Barefoot town" is a decent record and you used to be able to download some of his lead-sheets from the website he ran which make his unusual perspective on writing even more intriguing when you attempt to play them. They are really, really difficult. Anyway, as I pointed out on another thread, try listening to J D Allen instead and you will be a little less disappointed in the current scene. I think there is a lot of fluff out there in the jazz world and perhaps you need to be a bit more judicious with what you listen to. When I was getting in to jazz the music seemed to be put on a plate and was far easier to find. It is odd that May's essay talks about musicians being more capable of releasing their own material and by-passing the big labels yet I don't think it makes it easier to find the "good stuff" probably because there is just so much music around these days and people are lazy on exploring / promoting things. It is funny too how sometimes musicians seem ubiquitous and then disappear. Can't remember buying anything with Jason Moran on it for ages and I keep on having to return to players like Branford who I tend to overlook ,despite always being on the money with his records. He is a truly great player and the new album is supposed to be a killer.

Woking is a strange place because I often go through it on the train to London but have never got off there to explore the town. One of those placed like Guildford that you just pass through with never stopping although HG Wells' martians thought it was worthwhile destroying.

I am still waiting for SA's response to the original article I posted and look forward to reading his considered opinion during the course of what looks like being a very busy week for me with cost reports. It is a provocative article and made me think whether the UK is unique in having a "woke" jazz movement. There doesn't seem to be a racial element within French jazz but I think the music has often leaned towards African influences over there anyway.

[Serial_Apologist]

Unusually for me I've got quite a lot on this week too, and that article is rather long to take in in one sitting, but I'd like to get back when I've got time, Ian.

[Ian Thumwood]

I have been listening to Cassie Kinoshi's SEED Ensemble album "Driftglass". Oddly enough, I only twigged a few days ago that I have actually seen her perform as a member of Kokoroko at Vienne last month. The leader of that band, Sheila Maurice-Grey is one of the soloists on this disc.

I have to be quite honest about this record and say I am quite shocked that something so informed can come from a jazz musician in their 20s who comes from Welwyn Garden City. If I was listening to this in a blindfold test I would thought that this group was American just by the punch of the drummer (Patrick Boyle) and the confidence with which the music is delivered. It doesn't sound the least bit worthy and the solos are decent as well. However, the ensemble writing is what makes this music shine for me. I am not fussed by the appearance of the female rapper on the second track who dissipates all the energy of what had proceeded. The setting of Langston Hughes in "Wake (For Grenfell)" could have been kitsch but the whole chart is delivered with aplomb.

Here is an interview with her that had me nodding my head over and over again about her comments....

https://www.jazzwise.com/Features/cassie-kinoshi-interview-i-feel-like-in-britain-we-don-t-like-to-acknowledge-the-problems-we-have

I have got to say that I feel a bit precious about British jazz. I got in to the music through the generation of musicians who included John Surman, Mike Westbrook, John Taylor, Kenny Wheeler, Tony Coe, Norma Winstone and John Horler. After this, I really liked the musicians like Django Bates who followed in their wake. However, I think that the 1980s saw the start of a surge in technical ability in jazz throughout the world and a lot of what followed on in the 1990s seemed to become increasingly savvy. Anyone following in from these players has a lot to live up to. The big problem for me was in the 2000s when the jazz media seemed obsessed with promoting quirky groups who often seemed divorced from jazz such as the Portico Quartet and , taking on board some of SA's recommendations, I have been seriously underwhelmed by a lot of the jazz than has emerged since the 2000s in this country. There has been an increasing disconnect between what the press has been promoting and my own personal opinion. I have no interest in Led Bibb, Acoustic Ladyland, Neil Crowley or any of the "fashionable" groups that emerged in the last 10-15 years. Probably only John Escheet is the only English player to have emerged on this time who has fascinated me and he now resides in the US. The final straw for me was seeing Laura Jurd a few years back - the only concert I have been to which has come close to the absolute tedium of Tord Gustavsen who has always been the benchmark for pointlessness in jazz. The music was anodyne in the extreme but even the live concert did not match the acoustic Dinosaur set on "J to Z" which , for me, was an absolute low point. Listening to Dinosaur is the jazz equivalent of watching a Claude Puel team trying to play football - they know what they are doing technically but it rarely works and is a drudge to encounter. In saying this, I would have to say that the four best "British jazz" experiences I have encountered in the last two years are generally unknowns. The return to the studio by Peter Hurt, the young pianist Ashley Henry ( previously featured by Alyn) at Winchester JF and John Shenoy's terrific organ-based quartet at WJF are all "unfancied" but, in my estimation, they score heavily in jazz credibility. I would have to say that Cassie Kinohsi's record is in that category. It wears it's jazz badge with pride and distinction - this is what jazz should sound like ! there are echoes of Duke in there but perhaps some Steve Coleman, Nicole Mitchell and Greg Ward bubbling away too. Ok, it sounds like a jazz record made in 2019 and won't have Bluesnik swapping it for a Harold Land disc but it strikes a confident reassertion of what jazz should sound like. "Driftglass" will not change the shape of jazz yet it sounds far more in line with the contemporary American scene than whatever passes for jazz in the UK without sounding derivative. I would tend to dispense with the rapper who is superfluous and let the instrumental components speak for themselves. I think she is someone to watch albeit I could see these musicians fitting in more comfortably in the US scene. Doubtless there will be detractors yet you would have to be a curmudgeon to be negative about such a debut record by the 20-something generation. It will be interesting to see how Cassie Kinoshi's music evolves as she has bags of potential. And is anyone is going to point the finger at me for singling about a female jazz musician for criticism, I would point out that about half of Cassie's group are women! (Shirely Tettah, guitar, Sarah Tardy, piano and Sheila M-G, trumpet, getting a star from me.)

[Alyn_Shipton]

Sheila Maurice-Grey is the featured artist on next Monday's Jazz Now. Like I say, you'll miss us when we're gone. Just four shows to go...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0007xy8

[Serial_Apologist]

Ian, I'm listening to the Seed recording debut on the JazzWise link (for which thanks), and just past the halfway mark. It starts to take off on the ultimate number in Part 1 - Grenfell Song - with visceral scat and the trombone solo that threatens to throw things about a bit. He's very good, as in the tenor player. Cassie's comment about racial origins and identifications is right, but this music is no more American jazz than John Surman or Westbrook. Something happend in 1960s American jazz that took on avant-garde modernism on the music's own terms while shedding outmoded aspects of the bebop-derived language, and this allowed the break that gave non-black non-American jazz would-be's permission to express the music's universal potential previously locked within. The communal aspect re-emerges but briefly during the halcyon late 1960s when as Robert Wyatt put it it became possible to play anything before an audience, and this spirit transferred into the beginnings of jazz-rock so you had that lovely interpenetration of personnel and ideas between genres, infused with spirit of occasion. One only has to look at any period of social or political change - the effects on miners' wives from being co-opted into the fight against pit closures in the 1980s - to observe that consciousness raising does not limit itself to one area but reads across to stimulate broadenings of interest and outlook. While it sold the majors lent support but the imperative towards quick sales over creative development hingeing on record sales, the measure of success and musicians' material sustenance (let's face it), was bound to lead to the standardisation characteristic of much late '70s Fusion, followed by the nostalgia appeal of jazz with a confected image that followed - some postmodernist thinker once described this as culture consuming itself through misrepresentations of its own past - and integrationism through the respectability conferred by academic sanction. Thus it was inevitable that what was publicised as echt jazz would be containment in standardisable pre-free styles - Miles: "We did all that stuff 20 years ago!" - and that the reaction against that emanating from the colleges would take on the technical emphasis at the expense of edge, as you have remarked on. Seedbed and other young bands express the need jazz answers for communality, which is not met by commerciality. All this is helped by the positive aspects of social media that make transmission easier.

[Serial_Apologist]

Sheila Maurice-Grey is the featured artist on next Monday's Jazz Now. Like I say, you'll miss us when we're gone. Just four shows to go...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0007xy8

OK, I'll be stocking up on the Kleenex.