Alfa Mist on Jamie should be worth 2 fogs in a Shepherds Bush

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Just read a piece where Trevor Watts apparently, and approvingly, coined the phrase "insect music", the little micro movement music that SME etc pioneered. To which Peter Brotzmann responded, "The British Disease"!

[burning dog]

It depends if you think Jazz, as opposed to Free improv can have a Britishness/Europeaness and stay in the tradition There were loads fo people on All that Jazz who used to criticise Tubby Hayes and Co for sounding American meaning "Blues and Swing" ,but wouldnt Ronnie Scott for example have as much or possibly more in common with Stan Getz than John Surman who went down the "sounding English" path

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

There's a certain "Englishness" that Garrick, Collier, Westbrook etc later turned to, often literature & poetry inspired, that leaves me totally cold. My deficiency maybe. And at the opposite end there's a British improv tradition (not all) that seems to me more "performance art" to be charitable, than music with humanity, emotion and connection. The guitarist Keith Rowe who stuck fruit pie labels on Westbrook's charts and "played" those, refused to play a Gibson because of "American Imperialism" (Chinese presumably OK?), and let his guitar gradually detune in the case between gigs because tuning was "Western" and Eurocentric. Who the Gods wish to...they provide Maoism. Godard in film, that bunch in "music".

[eighthobstruction]

It depends if you think Jazz, as opposed to Free improv can have a Britishness/Europeaness and stay in the tradition There were loads fo people on All that Jazz who used to criticise Tubby Hayes and Co for sounding American meaning "Blues and Swing" ,but wouldnt Ronnie Scott for example have as much or possibly more in common with Stan Getz than John Surman who went down the "sounding English" path

....i like sounding English....Fab times of big band sound with a small ensemble....

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Cornelius Cadrew - "Founding the Party" (Marxist Leninist)

http://youtu.be/QwI5pqYGheo

ALL together now, and no looking away in embarrassment out the window. This is a catchy one.

[eighthobstruction]

....and the times they are a changing....

[Jazzrook]

Evan Parker, Derek Bailey & Han Bennink playing 'Dogmeat' from the 1970 album 'The Topography Of The Lungs':

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7sK-ySqfa0

JR

[Serial_Apologist]

It depends if you think Jazz, as opposed to Free improv can have a Britishness/Europeaness and stay in the tradition There were loads fo people on All that Jazz who used to criticise Tubby Hayes and Co for sounding American meaning "Blues and Swing" ,but wouldnt Ronnie Scott for example have as much or possibly more in common with Stan Getz than John Surman who went down the "sounding English" path

Some people on here seem to claim to know when what they're criticising has departed from "the tradition", like it was some moment in time, but personally I've never been able to detect any kind of transition. Many listening to the outer reaches of much of the AACM's output in the late 60s and 70s might feel it to be close in sound to the post-Webern European classical avant-garde. Ian Carr noted that jazz outside America started acquiring national characteristics, or at least non-American ones, with the coming of free jazz. For me therefore it's less a question of Englishness or Norwegianness culturally appropriating and then eviscerating jazz of some supposedly African-American essence, but of demonstrating the universality of its performance and ways of making music.

[Serial_Apologist]

Evan Parker, Derek Bailey & Han Bennink playing 'Dogmeat' from the 1970 album 'The Topography Of The Lungs':

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7sK-ySqfa0

JR

"Is that really jazz?" - see what I mean???

[Serial_Apologist]

....and the times they are a changing....

In terms of the ways in which they have changed jazz, this is possibly as contentious an area for disagreement among fans as br*xit among people who otherwise get along fine!

[burning dog]

....i like sounding English....Fab times of big band sound with a small ensemble....

i think they all sounded English except the Scottish chaps of course, but I got the impression some of the posters meant by Englash folky/folksy.

Big band sound sound with a small ensemble is indeed FAB

[burning dog]

Many listening to the outer reaches of much of the AACM's output in the late 60s and 70s might feel it to be close in sound to the post-Webern European classical avant-garde.

I can draw parralels with classical avant garde but think AACM is not that close. It's not really about identity or politics. What I find fulfilling
and or challenging in music is more present in Wadada leo Smith than Scandajazz or Roads to St Ives or whatever. I dont have a Wynton Marsalis style ideologicaL stance on it - anyway he thought Lester Bowie couldn't play (or was that one of his high profile fans?)

I can appreciate free improv on its own terms, different - The culture of the players may influence but its not nationalistic. I get the impression that some think British jazz should have parralels with Dvorak and Sibelius in the Classical field

[Serial_Apologist]

I can draw parralels with classical avant garde but think AACM is not that close. It's not really about identity or politics. What I find fulfilling
and or challenging in music is more present in Wadada leo Smith than Scandajazz or Roads to St Ives or whatever. I dont have a Wynton Marsalis style ideologicaL stance on it - anyway he thought Lester Bowie couldn't play (or was that one of his high profile fans?)

I can appreciate free improv on its own terms, different - The culture of the players may influence but its not nationalistic. I get the impression that some think British jazz should have parralels with Dvorak and Sibelius in the Classical field

That pretty much sums up my own thinking too, bd.

[Ian Thumwood]

I see Jazz Record Requests got a mention on Ed Reardon this evening with the eponymous hero struggling to find the programme on "BBC Sounds." Not sure what kind of music he might have requested although I suppose it would have to involve some jug playing.