One Of the strands of music influenced directly from late Coltrane was the kind of stuff by Alice C and Sanders afterwards . a kind of "World Music" in "Music of the World" sense rather than "from other parts of the world" Maybe he'd have gone in the same direction. Definitely an easier listen for a lot of people
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I'm sure Ian will be on here before long to point out that the Coltrane influence as a consistent improvising vocabulary/methodology has been on the wane for quite some time now, with players turning back to pre-Trane musicians such as Getz and early Konitz to investigate possibilities to expand beyond their viewpoint. My theory is that young tenor players in particular coming up in the mid-80s such as Courtney Pine, being more attracted by the strong rhythmic profiles in the music, partly as a consequence of new sourcings outwith "the tradition", would have found the freer flowing later Coltrane difficult to "hear" in relation to them. At the time Coltrane was still pursuing new directions he represented the embodiment for many of the truth that it was possible to fully master orthodox techniques and develop further on the basis of them - this being more "empowering" as a model of progress for such as Tubby Hayes and Alan Skidmore than players like Ornette Coleman and Albert Ayler, whose sound and approach had seemed at that time to spring from nowhere, fully formed and articulated. Trane's improvisational vocabulary was altogether richer and therefore perceived as more authoritative. Furthermore, there were the different phases in his development from around 1957 onwards from which to draw ideas and inspiration, rather as modern classical composers have from, say, Stravinsky, even though the original model had himself "moved on" to other things and was either no longer interested in those areas where he had had ineluctable influence, or had passed on.Originally posted by burning dog View PostI don't hear much connection with thrash metal, I was listening to some last night
I did listen to some late period Coltrane yesterday, followed by the Johnny Hartman album and enjoyed both.
I agree that many younger players are influenced by the band with Elvin Jones/Impulse era/ just as the more conservative neo classic players would idolise Giant steps and the Atlantic years - Not surprising that musicians who regard themselves as "Jazz - in the tradition" would identify with these if you feel the headlong rush, or pull, of modernism in "Jazz" per-se (with exceptions) kind of run out of steam with Coltrane's death
My theory, for what it's worth (which doesn't appear to be very much
), is that there was so much to Coltrane - so much to draw from as compared to someone like Charlie Parker, who himself realised eventually the closed nature of what he had introduced - that it would take a number of decades for his achievement to be digested. Few have managed this: the Worcestershire-based London-born Paul Dunmall being one of them. When I first heard him in the early 1980s, delivering in the manner of "Love Supreme" in the context of Tim Richards' Spirit Level and in a couple of remarkable sax/bass/drums trios, with either Paul Rogers or Tony Moore, and Tony Levin or Nigel Morris, respectively, on bass and drums, what he told me was "Well I'm just a Coltrane clone, really", he was methodically running through Coltrane's successive changes, respectively applying them in ways appropriate to different situations, and practising far Eastern meditation techniques, as had 'Trane. 10 years later he told me, "People have me down as a Coltrane imitator, but I've gone beyond that now". When I mentioned this to Tony's lady friend Annie, her reply was, "Well, I would bloody well hope so!" 
Last edited by Serial_Apologist; 17-01-19, 15:50.Comment
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Paul Dunmall actually took part in a workshop under the aegis of the Divine Light Mission in California, and under Alice Coltrane, in the late 1970s. He once mentioned how they were doing a well-known Coltrane number - could have been "Mister PC" - and he thought, "Wheey - here we f*****g go!" - and how afterwards "The Missus" as Paul referred to her, took him aside and told him, "You should remember that when John played that (high energy) way, he was always centred".Originally posted by burning dog View Post
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Pretty much agree with you in the above posts SA
It's possible Ian is right but from his death till the 90s Coltrane's influence was huge on young players whatever period or sub genre they nodded to.
Coltrane was very rooted in the continuum, he first became aware of jazz quite a bit pre Parker I would have thought (can't remember much about his early life in various biographies I read - quite some time ago) but I recall he had early connections with both Earl Bostic and Johnny Hodges which gave him a kind of authenticity regards tradition, odd that he only became a well know jazz name at the age of about 30
Then a remarkable 11 years !!Comment
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There's a (to me) fascinating story in R Kelly's great biography of Monk, where Coltrane c. four? months before he died was booked to play the Detroit jazz festival. There was heavy snow and although Monk's Quartet managed to get through, only Alice and Trane arrived from his band as they travelled separately. So, it was agreed that Coltrane would play with Monk, playing obviously Monk material. Apparently it went superbly, with Trane playing in a cross between old and new and Monk reinvigorated. Monk supposedly said, "John, this is how you should play all the time!" And Coltrane replied (seriously), "You know, maybe I should". Point being, I don't think Coltrane saw any discontinuity in his output, it was of a piece, although some more spiritual than others. He was also incredibly aware of other musicians of all styles, well away from what he chose to do, he wasn't some myopic zealot. And anyone who can say, "Miles can be a bit of Prick!", is fine by me, "spiritual" or otherwise.Comment
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Originally posted by BLUESNIK'S REVOX View Post
There are some interesting comments in this thread. I concur about Coltrane covering more ground than Charlie Parker did in their respective recording careers. It would have been interesting to see where Parker would have ended up but I am sceptical it he had lived to become involved in the avant garde movement. I just think he would have been eclipsed by events after say about 1957 and wonder if the whole notion of be-bop would ultimately have been self-limiting.
I feel that Coltrane was rather like a colossal storm cloud. He later work seemed to be the culmination of what he was building up to but once it was passed, I think a lot of the stuff that followed in his wake by the likes of his wife, Pharaoh Sanders and Archie Shepp was ultimately limited. I get quickly bored by the one and two chord vamps and am not a fan of the spiritual stuff they produced. For me, it has not aged well and sounds really dated.
I don't have any of the really late Coltrane in my collection but I like the later quartet material where the band went in to overdrive. Because if his early death, it is easier to see Coltrane's work culminating in the more aggressive and sometimes abrasive later work. I don't mind it and am not offended by it yet I find that the "freer" aspect of his playing often comes from vamping on one chord. Once you suss what is happening, I think Coltrane become less interesting. The best stuff I have heard is the "One up, one down" double CD which can only be described as titanic.
I often think that John Coltrane would have found a spiritual home in the 1970s in the fledgling ECM label. I am convinced that he would have ended up working with musicians outside of jazz and perhaps being involved with groups like Codona. Just think that the free stuff would then not have been seen as some sort of musical full stop but indicative of the times. He would have taken what he had learned and applied this to newer formats. Seeing as he was only 41 when he died, I think he was potentially only half way through his life. We could easily be in a situation where he would have had a whole collection of recordings which explored a wide range of possibilities. I am not convinced that he would have necessarily pursued a direction akin to Anthony Braxton and I just feel that he would have been rather like Charles Lloyd. The freer stuff would have burnt itself out by the early 70's and Coltrane would have ended up in the loft scene.Comment
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Originally posted by Conchis View Post
Yep. I understand that completely. I'm not too keen on Coltrane's late stuff either.Comment
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A little research into Johnny Hartman:Originally posted by Conchis View Post
" After recording several singles with different orchestras, Hartman finally released his first solo album, Songs from the Heart, with a quintet for Bethlehem Records in 1955. Releasing two more albums with small labels, neither very successful, Hartman got a career-altering offer in 1963 to record with John Coltrane. The saxophonist likely remembered Hartman from a bill they shared at the Apollo Theater in 1950 and later said,
I just felt something about him, I don’t know what it was. I like his sound, I thought there was something there I had to hear so I looked him up and did that album.[3]
Featuring all ballads, John Coltrane and Johnny Hartman is widely considered a classic. This led to recording four more albums with Impulse! and parent label ABC, all produced by Bob Thiele. ."
For my money, the best track on the Coltrane album was You are too beautiful. He really nailed that, and McCoy Tyner was in full control of the quartet and in great form. Coltrane didn't feature on that track!!Comment
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The finest version of "Lush Life" IS by John Coltrane, but it's the version with Red Garland and Donald Byrd, and Red most probably brought the tune to the date. Prestige Jan 1958. Beautiful take & solos from Red, Trane AND the underestimated (now as a pure jazz player), Donald Byrd. I think it was the second or third Coltrane LP I have bought as a "yoof".Comment
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Once, when I was a nipper, I borrowed a copy of "Live at the Village Vanguard Again!", the LP with a pic of his then-current group ft. Alice, Pharoah, Rashied Ali etc, from my local library in Hounslow. I wasn't prepared for the distance he had put himself and his group from the stuff I had heard previously. It was too much. Since then the furthest I have got with his music is the "One Down, One Up" release which was of course invigorating. Perhaps I need to look at the late music. I do know that my old mate Denys Baptiste has immersed himself in the later stuff - a particular fave of his is "Sun Ship". I get the feeling, without knowing any of this music, that it is probably not as scary as some say.
Incidentally I think that Trane would probably have got into fusion music had he survived into the '70s, though more into the Shakti type, at least initially.all words are trains for moving past what really has no nameComment
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Ian Carr thought that too, but more in terms of making use of electronics. Others I know who did not take the fusion route disagree, claiming he would have been too cramped by it. However the thought that he might have gone in the Shakti direction had not occurred to me.Originally posted by Tenor Freak View PostComment
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I cannot imagine Coltrane getting in to jazz rock. I have been listening a bit to Weather Report of late and it is clear that their concept is really about arrangements. There are moments where I feel that Zawinul had a big band in his mind when he was writing. I find it hard to square this with where Coltrane would have been coming from. I just think he would have looked beyond jazz in the 1970s.Comment
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The long suppressed "Coltrane plays Motown" session gives a clue (Coltrane, Elvin, McCoy and Jimmy's embarrassing vocal on "Stop in the name of love" is something to hear"), and then there was the rumoured get together with David Bowie, David digging out his student alto from the garage. And then maybe Coltrane would have gone into the confectionery business. McCoy said John always had a big packet of American "gobstoppers" in his coat pocket that he really disliked sharing with anyone.
Who knows? No-one. "Go ask Alice"Comment
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Not this Shakti, surely ??(aka Alice)::
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Of course, but I thin conjecture is fun and it also allows you to dispel the notion that late Coltrane was some sort of musical full stop. The issue is that the music continued to evolve beyond 1967 and that the what might be perceived as a culmination would have only have been phase in his development had he lived. It is a bit lazy to look at the 1970s as being dominated by fusion and jazz rock as it was more a period where musicians were able to take stock of the free jazz movement but also open their ears to others sounds too. It is intriguing to look at where the like of Sanders, Ayler and Shepp ended up in the next decade (dead in the case of Ayler but signing off with an R n/B record) and to see that the musicians who seemed most in debt to Coltrane in the 70s and 80s essentially came from the jazz mainstream. I would be thinking of musicians like Mike Brecker, Steve Grossman, Charles Lloyd, Bob Berg, Dave Liebman, Branford Marsalis, etc. However, I think that a player like Mike Brecker was able to build upon Coltrane's work with a more modern harmonic concept even if there was a trade-off in other respects.Originally posted by BLUESNIK'S REVOX View Post
One of the most rewarding aspects of jazz in the last twenty years is that Coltrane's influence is less of a force and that musicians are looking far beyond this. I can't say that Coltrane has any discernible influence on Steve Coleman's music nor the likes of players like Steve Lehman, Dave Binney, Mark Turner, Henry Threadgill, etc, etc. I am glad that jazz has escaped from the shadow of Coltrane but for the generation of players who grew up under his spell, it is not the late-Coltrane that appears to be a significant pull. The issue for me is that few players have ever managed to match the emotional clout of Coltrane nor have managed to grasp the titanic approach to lengthy solos which seem to create a shape over a prolonged period of improvisation.Comment
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