Truffaz you can find it, right here

[Quarky]

One of my favourite "jazz moments" is Coltrane in Paris with Miles on that last 1960 tour. Coltrane's solo on I think "Blackbird", where the audience (half anyway) don't "get it" and he very funnily plays Dexter's patented "Mona Lisa" quote to (sarcastically?) finish the solo. After the concert Frank Tunot, key figure of Paris jazz, said to Trane, "Some the audience were very hostile", to which Coltrane said, "Well, fuck 'em!". Great.

Thanks - really must get to grips with Coltrane's last recordings. Work in progress.

Did he complete his musical journey? Expression is a different Coltrane from Interstellar Space Coltrane, (sorry, meant Ascension), imv of course.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

The amusing thing for me with that Paris solo is that you can almost sense Trane trying to avoid that quote, but it's completely logical and the perfect resolve, and I think his humour won out in the face of opposed boos and applause.

As to late Coltrane, what worked for me was to totally immerse myself in it as the records came out. You can then hear the "language", although the final "speaking in tongues" was never for me, and that's not to doubt his conviction.

[Quarky]

As to late Coltrane, what worked for me was to totally immerse myself in it as the records came out. You can then hear the "language", although the final "speaking in tongues" was never for me, and that's not to doubt his conviction.

.....................still work in progress.....I appreciate the spiritual/ soulful/ blues/ religious aspect of his music. I find this in much of the album Expression.
Interstellar Space is to my mind abstract improvisation - if that is "speaking in tongues" - so be it. However I was left with a feeling of deep sadness - just me?

Draw the line at Farmyard John - The Father the Son and the Holy Ghost, and Ascension.

[Joseph K]

.....................still work in progress.....I appreciate the spiritual/ soulful/ blues/ religious aspect of his music. I find this in much of the album Expression.
Interstellar Space is to my mind abstract improvisation - if that is "speaking in tongues" - so be it. However I was left with a feeling of deep sadness - just me?

Draw the line at Farmyard John - The Father the Son and the Holy Ghost, and Ascension.

I love late period Coltrane the most (I mean post-A Love Supreme stuff). Interstellar Space is my favourite album by almost anyone. For me, it doesn't sound abstract, but rather suffused with a mystical poetic/symbolic quality. What's incredible about it is that he assembled a whole improvisational vocabulary across the different pieces so they each have their separate mood but at the same time sound like a suite. I find it mind-blowingly ecstatic music, transcendentally euphoric, a genre unto itself - 'space-bop'. If there's anything sad about it it's that Coltrane should make this amazing discovery just before he died.

[Quarky]

I love late period Coltrane the most (I mean post-A Love Supreme stuff). Interstellar Space is my favourite album by almost anyone. For me, it doesn't sound abstract, but rather suffused with a mystical poetic/symbolic quality. What's incredible about it is that he assembled a whole improvisational vocabulary across the different pieces so they each have their separate mood but at the same time sound like a suite. I find it mind-blowingly ecstatic music, transcendentally euphoric, a genre unto itself - 'space-bop'. If there's anything sad about it it's that Coltrane should make this amazing discovery just before he died.

I don't dispute your view, on the contrary I'm glad that there is more to the album than I can appreciate.

Doubt whether I will get much further with Interstellar Space for the time being. However I believe that Expression was released before his death whereas Interstellar Space was released posthumously. This suggests to me that the Record Company may have felt Expression had a broader appeal.

[Joseph K]

I don't dispute your view, on the contrary I'm glad that there is more to the album than I can appreciate.

Doubt whether I will get much further with Interstellar Space for the time being. However I believe that Expression was released before his death whereas Interstellar Space was released posthumously. This suggests to me that the Record Company may have felt Expression had a broader appeal.

Maybe, but the some what amateurish flute playing on the second track of Expression limits the album's overall appeal for me. The other three tracks on it are great though.

[Serial_Apologist]

I love late period Coltrane the most (I mean post-A Love Supreme stuff). Interstellar Space is my favourite album by almost anyone. For me, it doesn't sound abstract, but rather suffused with a mystical poetic/symbolic quality. What's incredible about it is that he assembled a whole improvisational vocabulary across the different pieces so they each have their separate mood but at the same time sound like a suite. I find it mind-blowingly ecstatic music, transcendentally euphoric, a genre unto itself - 'space-bop'. If there's anything sad about it it's that Coltrane should make this amazing discovery just before he died.

I think it was such a shock to the system it would take jazz some while to regain its bearings. Few would follow the Coltrane path - those who have mainly following the pre-free era up to Love Supreme. Those tenor players who started off contemporary with Coltrane, and initially influenced by him such as Wayne Shorter, Kalaprush, Roscoe Mitchell, Alan Skidmore, John Surman, Gert Dudek and Evan Parker, would begin to find their own directions before Trane had completed his own journey, which some would say lay incomplete, given (as you say) the expansion of his own vocabulary. One of the very few has been Paul Dunmall, who chose to totally absorb all Coltrane's earlier improvising methodologies and then to take on the late, Interstellar stuff, and pursue it further in all manner of playing situations, from free to pre-structured.

[Ian Thumwood]

I love late period Coltrane the most (I mean post-A Love Supreme stuff). Interstellar Space is my favourite album by almost anyone. For me, it doesn't sound abstract, but rather suffused with a mystical poetic/symbolic quality. What's incredible about it is that he assembled a whole improvisational vocabulary across the different pieces so they each have their separate mood but at the same time sound like a suite. I find it mind-blowingly ecstatic music, transcendentally euphoric, a genre unto itself - 'space-bop'. If there's anything sad about it it's that Coltrane should make this amazing discovery just before he died.

Joseph

I have been impressed by some of the later Coltrane but equally repelled by "Ascension" which 'I really don't like. Coltrane has so much stature and there are moments on records like the amazing "One up, one down" live set where the music is almost overwhelming. What intrigues me is that there has been no "Coltrane backlash." The way jazz has developed has seen the whole modal approach largely side-lined these days as the whole oeuvre ran out if steam by the 1980s'. It is fascinating listening to this music from a harmonic point of view because there are whole swathes of recordings made by Coltrane's classic quartet where the music is actually distilled down to one or two chords. I have a good number of CDs by John Coltrane from this era and it is noticeable how some of the most intense flights of creation are based on simple one-chord vamps. Even stuff like "Nature Boy" from the underrated "Plays" disc throws out the original chord sequence and replaces it with a D-minor drone.

I would have to say that this kind if approach is often boring. Once you understand the "trick" behind a performance, it becomes less interesting. Luckily, John Coltrane was probably the greatest improvisor at exploiting this one chord approach and managing to make it compelling. However, there is a nagging doubt in my mind that the better material he produced is either chord based (such as the standards / Ellington collaboration, etc), employs forms such as the Blues or stems from Coltrane's own pen. I can see the "Interstellar space" disc as a step-change in his approach where the lack of a harmonic instrument is to the service of the music. There are moments too on "One up, one down" where he is just duetting with Elvin and the music seems to go up several gears.

I went to a gig last Friday where one of my friends was singing in a rock band. There were two bands on the gig which was at a beer festival. Intriguingly , the first group performed a number of "covers" of rock tunes which were largely based on one chord or, like "Moondance, " had two chords in the tune. Back in the summer, the African jazz set I saw plus the fusion group "Good, good , not bad" both used the one chord vamp as a key component of their respective sets. It is amazing how ubiquitous this one chord stuff is. Listen to the radio and there is masses of pop music which is the same. Other than Coltrane, I have got to say that I find it an effort to listen to. You can quickly understand why Coltrane jettisoned this approach for a "free for all" but I sometimes wonder whether he would have actually returned to more structured music and maybe turned up on the fledgling ECM label in the 1970's playing a mix of free jazz and World Music.

It is a worthwhile argument debating how "free" a lot f the avant garde was in the 1960's or how "outside" it actually was. My opinion is that music is actually more adventurous and progressive when people make harmony more complicated rather than simplifying it. As soon as you apply rules to harmony, you automatically reduce the options that are open. By playing vamps, it gave Coltrane freedom with form and rhythm but I feel was ultimately a harmonnic cul-de-sac. Just my opinion.

[Joseph K]

Hi, Ian, thanks for the reply.

I appreciate a great deal of music (jazz) that is based on harmonic stasis - riffs and drones, as well as that which is based on a set harmonic movement. Interstellar Space is interesting because while there is no harmony instrument, quite clearly there is harmony Coltrane implies from how he modulates scale motifs etc. In fact, the lack of an instrument like the piano means he is free to modulate in such an extremely colourful, free way.

Improvising over either no chord or over one or two chords poses quite a few different challenges from playing over standards/blues. Any jazz player worth their salt should be able to play over any of them. Herbie Hancock is someone who is definitely capable of sounding awesome over a vamp in a fusion-like setting or over changes. (Regarding the former, try this barnstorming duet with Chick Corea - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9REQ9Szdu5I&t=660s )

[antongould]

Yes, another fine JRR, and Sal Nistico was an interesting player up to the end. I liked Corea comparing Coltrane's opening to an opera singer, and especially the Bartok, that part that always suggests to me Gil Evans and Miles. Not struck at all by CC's following "rip off" nor very much by Wayne's orchestral thing which I see is a big production complete with a "graphic novel" written by Wayne. I will stick to Ju Ju, All Seeing Eye and Madam Bovery.

Just catched up, as we say in these parts, I thought the Sal Nistico was superb and as Alyn said the pianist was amazing ....

[Serial_Apologist]

Just catched up, as we say in these parts, I thought the Sal Nistico was superb and as Alyn said the pianist was amazing ....

Yes, truly.

[Quarky]

Three little words - "He's playing harmonics!" totally explanatory- but did he know where he was going? Or did he need to go anywhere?

Ohhhh!! - that was a really big click........