Don that penguin suit, garner your wits, & big 'em up

[Serial_Apologist]

Sat 2 June
4pm - Jazz Record Requests
Drawn from listener's letters and emails, Alyn Shipton's selection from the broad spectrum of jazz includes music from Pennsylvania-born pianist Errol Garner (1923-77).

He was only 54 when he died.

http://www.alynshipton.co.uk/blog

5pm - J to Z
Kevin Le Gendre presents highlights from BBC Music's recent Biggest Weekend festival, with acts including Manchester-based piano trio GoGo Penguin, the Scottish National Jazz Orchestra, and Jamie Cullum. See Tuesday 8pm Radio 2*

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b51yp0

'Round Midnite - Geoffrey Smith's Jazz
Geoffrey Smith picks highlights from the band led by Duke Ellington between 1940 and 1942.

Arguably the Ellington unit that had the biggest influence on British influencees coming later?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b52035

Mon 4 June
11pm Jazz Now
Soweto Kinch introduces a concert from the Cheltenham Jazz festival given by New York drummer Jim Black's quartet Malamute, which features Oskar Gudjonsson on tenor sax, Elias Stemeseder on keyboards and Chris Tordini on electric bass.

All new names to me, but having followed Jim Black from the days he led his trio Miniature I've been an admirer of the drummer, as player, composer and occasional electronics specialist.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0b52cq6

*Jamie's programme next Tuesday talks to Tom Kerridge, broadcaster and founder of the Pub in the Park festival in Marlow - which no doubt Bucks the trends, not 'arf.

There's a lot of Bernstein on Radio 3 on Friday, if you're into that sort of thing.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

"Backed up by a jazz band, layin' on the wood/
Mixin' Ahmad Jamal in my Johnny be Goode/
Sneaking Errol Garner in my Sweet Sixteen/Now they tell me Stan Kenton's cutting Maybelline, oh Baby!'

Chuck Berry (the jazz critic) -"Go Go Go" 1961. But everyone knew that anyway. Chuck's revenge after the 1958 Newport Jazz Fest with a not understanding jazz rhythm section including famous names.

[Ian Thumwood]

Must admit that the music played so far on J-Z is exactly the kind of stuff I really dislike. The opening track by the Israeli born, uk-based musician was dreadful but still doesn't really match the horrors of Go-Go Penguin, a group that has nothing to do with jazz. Interesting to read an American review (All About Jazz) of their last album which was pretty scathing with the repetitive nature of the group's music really grating - kind of Eberhard Weber meets EDM. Horrible.

[Serial_Apologist]

Must admit that the music played so far on J-Z is exactly the kind of stuff I really dislike. The opening track by the Israeli born, uk-based musician was dreadful but still doesn't really match the horrors of Go-Go Penguin, a group that has nothing to do with jazz. Interesting to read an American review (All About Jazz) of their last album which was pretty scathing with the repetitive nature of the group's music really grating - kind of Eberhard Weber meets EDM. Horrible.

What seems to be involved is a general dumbing down of musical content, which I've long observed happening when to poppify their music bands turn to "electronics", not, as Stockhausen, Berio, Soft Machine, or Evan Parker with his Electroacoustic Ensemble do, as means for expanding the possible.

I'm sticking with the programme - I want to hear what Martin Speake's choice recordings are going to be, as he's an intriguing player, sort of Paul Desmond into Ornette Coleman can go. I told him that once!

[Ian Thumwood]

Switched of to watch the football - got the cricket on my computer so dumped the jazz for this evening. Will have to listen to catch up.

I just found the choices of records pretty depressing, especially coming on after the Linda Sharrock / Wolfgang Puschnig request which was terrific!

The whole thing with jazz is that the things which mattered to players a generation ago no longer apply. So much contemporary stuff these days seems to eschew the questing improvisation which seemed so popular in the wake of John Coltrane. The Penguin crew gave me a headache, to be honest. I don't like the repetitiveness and the drill-like quality of the music which seems totally at odds with what I grew up thinking it should mean. This kind of stuff is the antithesis of what players like Sonny Rollins or Lee Konitz were about. I know the music has "moved on" and this music is going to appeal to a 20-something audience but it seems to have very little to do with jazz. I really dislike it.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

What seems to be involved is a general dumbing down of musical content, which I've long observed happening when to poppify their music bands turn to "electronics", not, as Stockhausen, Berio, Soft Machine, or Evan Parker with his Electroacoustic EnseTge mble do, as means for expanding the possible.

I'm sticking with the programme - I want to hear what Martin Speake's choice recordings are going to be, as he's an intriguing player, sort of Paul Desmond into Ornette Coleman can go. I told him that once!

It seems we are firmly back in JLU territory. The new paint is wearing off.The Musician Choice is however a good feature and could easily be extended to thirty minutes plus if the producers were not worried about attention span. The short items suggests they are. I don't know Ornette's Science Fiction and it sounds well worth checking. Last week's concert with the vibe/piano set up was a lot better.

[elmo]

Must admit that the music played so far on J-Z is exactly the kind of stuff I really dislike. The opening track by the Israeli born, uk-based musician was dreadful but still doesn't really match the horrors of Go-Go Penguin, a group that has nothing to do with jazz. Interesting to read an American review (All About Jazz) of their last album which was pretty scathing with the repetitive nature of the group's music really grating - kind of Eberhard Weber meets EDM. Horrible.

I found this weeks J-Z pretty hard going except for the Martin Speake bit.

Wake me up after you go go seems apt for the "penguin" - To misquote Willie the Shake "It is a tale told by a Penguin
full of sound and fury signifying nothing

elmo

[Ian Thumwood]

Elmo

It is quite interesting to find yourself in a position where you can't "get" what a younger generation of jazz fans are in to. I remember laughing at people back in the 1980s who said that Loose Tubes were not jazz. There was a famous letter published in Jazz Journal about this at the time and it even ended up in this band's publicity. It caused quite a stir. However, I am now finding myself saying the same things!!

Back in the 1980s and 90's I was almost obsessed with checking out the latest developments in jazz and you tend to look back at that era as being really good. Upon reflection, the 1980s were terrific , not only because of the new stuff but also due to the number of "greats" from all eras who were still around. I can remember our local radio promoting a tour by Jabbo Smith, for example ! Nowadays, the people I discovered in the 1980s are the "veteran" players and the peers of these times.

Never been enthused by anything too modish or lauded by the critics although I suppose I always prefer to discover stuff myself as opposed to being told what I should be listening to. But I would have to say that the disconnection for me started with the Nu Jazz stuff from around the millennium. There is a lot of great jazz out there but I think that there is probably more substandard stuff now than since the mid70's. Shame that there is no one young enough on this "bored" to come in and make the case for bands like Go Go Penguin.

[elmo]

Ian

I am open minded to new developments in Jazz - going back through the history Jazz as with any other art form the shock of the new has always caused schisms . I can imagine the horror post war trad fans felt in 1947 when hearing Parker's " Bird gets the worm" and Constellation" and I came up in the 60's and remember the opposition to the Ornette, ESP label, artists that I liked even though it took some getting into.

The problem I have with Go Go Penguin is not that its a shock of the new, more that I have heard all this stuff before there is nothing new in it. Growing up with Rock and Pop and modern classical music none of this stuff shocks me at all. I would much rather be shocked by something genuinely new which I had to work at to challenge my heart and head.

elmo

[Serial_Apologist]

I don't know Ornette's Science Fiction and it sounds well worth checking.

Oh get it if you can, Bluesie, as it's a great album. 1972. There's an Indian singer on some of the tracks and she sings from her roots but fits in wonderfully. I lent my copy to somebody, forgot who, and never got it back!

[burning dog]

The penguin lot suggest to me

Einaudi - The Jazz Album

Going to a Go Go

[Ian Thumwood]

Ian

I am open minded to new developments in Jazz - going back through the history Jazz as with any other art form the shock of the new has always caused schisms . I can imagine the horror post war trad fans felt in 1947 when hearing Parker's " Bird gets the worm" and Constellation" and I came up in the 60's and remember the opposition to the Ornette, ESP label, artists that I liked even though it took some getting into.

The problem I have with Go Go Penguin is not that its a shock of the new, more that I have heard all this stuff before there is nothing new in it. Growing up with Rock and Pop and modern classical music none of this stuff shocks me at all. I would much rather be shocked by something genuinely new which I had to work at to challenge my heart and head.

elmo

This is exactly where I am coming from too although I got in to jazz in the 1980s. I think that there has always been a debate about what jazz is and recall reading about a book written in the early twenties as a guide to orchestration of "hot music" which was then stressing that the future of the music was reflected in the kind of thing Paul Whiteman had set out to achieve. It was seriously suggesting that the future of jazz lay with composition / writing - actually quite forward thinking because this is probably the case now more than anyone else in the history if jazz. For me, the innovative stuff is not modish groups like the penguins but people who are composing whether it be Henry Threadgill, Steve Coleman, Alan Ferber, Maria Schneider. This is where my interest really lies at the moment and if you like jazz performed by large ensembles, we are living in a golden era.


The problem with a band like Go Go Penguin for me is the heritage issue. I am sure that these musicians would cite people from EDM as influences and make claims for them being as innovative in their field as the kind of jazz names being touted when I was discovering jazz. I don't think jazz needs to "shock" to be innovative and feel that we have really gone past that stage. Part of the problem stems from the constant need for jazz to be different - Sonny Rollin's ominous quote about "jazz being the sound of surprise." I think this quote is now really unfortunate because the surprise with bands like the Penguins is that it isn't jazz! You can find music out there which is "genuinely new" and I also feel that there is now a coterie of musicians who considered a lot of the kind of stuff Blue Note put out in the mid 60's as "unfinished business" and have built on that without making it seem retro. In fact, it does make a lot of jazz seem more authentic.

The whole EDM / rave scene has, on the whole, had a negative effect on all music, giving non-musicians and DJ's the ability to forge a career in music without knowing a great deal about music or being able to play an instrument. I don't like dancing and therefore cannot see the appeal which is obviously there for a younger audience You can therefore appreciate where the Penguins are coming from and who their target audience is. It might be clever but anyone over 35 is not going to be in to it and it ten years time it will have been entirely forgotten having had no lasting impact on the development of jazz. FOr me, this is more of a departure than Charlie Parker's innovations which came out of the developments that had been happening in jazz during the previous 10 years. I don't think that Parker was trying to divorce his approach from what had gone before but it is probably worthwhile noting that his decisions were determined for musical reasons and not the commercial / populist ones of the Penguins. Had the penguins been around in the late 40's, their approach would be akin to a band like Ted Heaths in that they both came out of the popular and commercial Dance music of the day, were extremely polished but neither really pushed the boundaries of the music. Both bands really resonated with their audiences irrespective of their feelings towards jazz. I am not a Ted Heath fan by any means but even his band seems more credible as a jazz unit in the strictest sense and even employ Tadd Dameron as an arranger. The Penguins are not particularly innovative in the Charlie Parker sense but maybe sadly reflect our times just as the Free jazz stuff did in the 1960's. If anything, the Penguin are an indictment of what how so much of the populist media views jazz nowadays especially as the journalists writing the reviews and the likes of Kevin le Gendre are probably younger than me. Not convinced that there is, in fact, a large audience out there to be challenged by any music that is difficult hence so many of the more popular jazz groups these days being pretty easy to listen to.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Agree with much of that, but the phrase "Jazz is the sound of surprise" came.from Whitney Balliett..." jazz critic and book reviewer for the New Yorker and was with the journal from 1954 until 2001" Died 2007. Jazz can also be enjoyably familiar. How many genuinely "new" approaches are there? From Mick Mulligan to Evan Parker is quite a stretch. Even Gerry Mulligan to Evan...!

[Serial_Apologist]

Agree with much of that, but the phrase "Jazz is the sound of surprise" came.from Whitney Balliett..." jazz critic and book reviewer for the New Yorker and was with the journal from 1954 until 2001" Died 2007. Jazz can also be enjoyably familiar. How many genuinely "new" approaches are there? From Mick Mulligan to Evan Parker is quite a stretch. Even Gerry Mulligan to Evan...!

I find myself in agreement with both you and Ian! Jazz has always broached a spectrum of accessibility ranging from popular (or populist if you prefer) to experimental and boundary pushing. Somewhere in the "middle" are the large numbers of musicians and ensembles who are the equivalents of straight modern composers such as Prokofiev, Honegger, Martinu or Tippett - which is not to bracket them in one stylistic bucket, but rather to point out that in similar fashion the jazz mainstream as represented at one time by eg The Jazz Messengers have likewise always tended to draw from both ends - Soul and free jazz in the case of the Messengers.

There's a great quote somewhere about the Austrian composer Alexander Zemlinsky, who taught Schoenberg, dated Mahler's missus-to-be, and was always a friendly associate of Scheoberg's school, while putting several years' distance between his music and the Schoenberg/Berg/Webern triumvirate, which, at the time they were innovating radically and setting down markers for how far music could progress in language and form, he found himself unable to follow. With the demise, effectively, of the kind of creative mainstream in modern classical music as a gateway to mass engagement - composers writing strong music of the kind Prokofiev was when he composed his Fifth Symphony (1944) - today's contemporary composer leaves the field wide open to jazz to represent that potentially wide appeal, because I'm willing to wager from the numbers of young musicians appearing on the scene who are not writing the sort of stuff produced by Go Go Penguin, that same middle class, sometime grammar school-raised stratum of gifted players are being attracted to jazz as an alternative to classical composition or writing music for TV or films. And why? Because jazz gives them the best of the 20th century composers' endowment of musical vocabulary and expression - from Debussy via Bartok to Messiaen - as it did for my generation of the John Surmans and Norma Winstones - as means offering fruitful ways of integrating from other genres (to maintain "street cred" the way jazz has always done), and at the same time an approach to playing that is at once convivial (self-actualisation <-> band <-> audience feedback <-> band <-> self-actualisation <-> etc etc) and positively representive of a progressive inclusive culture. Where I slightly disagree with Ian - as he knows! - is over the question of the (for me!) primacy of improvisation in the generation of new ideas for keeping the tradition progressing. As Ian points out Charlie Parker's evolution of the form was in continuity with developments that immediately preceded his advent on the scene - and these developments were in improvisation, and how improvisation in its turn was shaping new frameworks for jazz composition. While all this may seem obsessively preoccupied with the materials of music and their working out - a more spontaneous way of devising music than Brahms pouring notes onto score paper - the improvisatory aspect of jazz adds a crucial dimension to modern music in its being forged in the immediacy of the circumstances of its makers' lives, this giving the music its specific character and characteristics in ways more immediate and by virtue of being so more authentic than the composer - be s/he a classical or jazz composer - slogging away in a garre at one remove from the circumstances of performance.

I was very much struck by a comment made somewhere by Mike Westbrook to the effect that writing music as opposed to playing it is a very lonely business, and that you may think what you are doing is highly original, never been done in this way before etc, and then you go to some festival, where you may or may not be performing or having your commission played ... and you have a most welcome if rare opportunity to fraternise with fellow jazz musicians... and you hear something, only to realise that somebody else has got there first and is doing what you thought you were doing, but doing it much better! While in no way wishing to demean the importance of great jazz composition, and the ways in which education in the disciplines enabled black artists from impoverished backgrounds to contribute music that challenged the classical world at its own game, I can hardly think of a better illustration of the difference between it and improvisation in the hierarchy of importance to jazz.

Sorry if this seems a bit garbled - my connection to the internet keeps seizing up!

[Joseph K]

The whole EDM / rave scene has, on the whole, had a negative effect on all music, giving non-musicians and DJ's the ability to forge a career in music without knowing a great deal about music or being able to play an instrument. I don't like dancing and therefore cannot see the appeal which is obviously there for a younger audience You can therefore appreciate where the Penguins are coming from and who their target audience is. It might be clever but anyone over 35 is not going to be in to it and it ten years time it will have been entirely forgotten having had no lasting impact on the development of jazz.

I wouldn't say rave music has had too much of a negative effect on all music. In my experience (4 years on the rave scene in Birmingham) none of the DJs did it professionally. It was all just about the party.

And some of the music is pretty good. Much of it is not. Generally if you've had a lot of MDMA you can't tell the difference! It's all about the drugs really, and the people. But I can enjoy a good techno mix (as I currently am).

I used to play jazz guitar and there was a time that I had thoughts of jamming over a techno mix and videoing it. Sadly my plectrum-technique never became good enough and these days I play finger-style classical guitar (which, actually, I played prior to switching to jazz in my early 20s).

So much of jazz is about real-time operated music - improvisation and performance. It is difficult to see how EDM - which is essentially frozen - could be integrated with it. I've been to a rave where someone played a bass guitar along with the mix, another one with someone playing bongos along... I guess you could say rave music has a kind of punk aesthetic, or at least certain kinds of rave music.