Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment at Anvil, Basingstoke

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  • Ian Thumwood
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 4165

    Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment at Anvil, Basingstoke

    Last night I went to hear a concert given by the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment in Basingstoke which featured the fabulous conductor Marin Alsop. Although she is American, she earned her reputation conducting the local Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra and has developed into the kind of advocate for Classical Music that used to be associated with sir Simon Rattle. She has so much energy and enthusiasm for the music that her name will put bums on seats.

    The two part concert started off with Beethoven's 4th Symphony. I did not recognise the first movement but the next two movements sounded familiar albeit from a very old record of Herbert Von Karajan's. Beethoven was one of the first classical composers I was aware of and I think that the symphonies are the most accessible pieces of his music. Otherwise, he is generally a bit of a non-starter for me. You can understand why Beethoven doesn't have the cachet of Chopin, Debussy or Ravel simply because he was around too early to have the harmonic language to make the music appeal to improvisers who are switched on by harmonic language. What is interesting is that the music is clearly composed through an improvisatory process even if the succeeding phrases are often predictable. In the hands of Alsop, the music became fascinating , not only because of the energy inherent in her interpretation but also because you could see the "historic" instruments which were making each particular sound. The horns were particularly fascinating and it was intriguing that the natural horns were doubled up because they lacked the valves to place chromatically.

    The second half also featured the more meatier Violin Concerto with Nicola Benedetti as principle soloist. Again, there was a sense of more musical stardust . I was totally unfamiliar with this music and found that there was a lengthy cadenza in the middle where she was accompanied by tympani which had the edginess of a jazz soloist. It was a fascinating experience as I cannot recall hearing Beethoven performed live before as I generally have no interest whatsoever in this period of music. There is little between Bach and Chopin that tends to appeal to my taste yet last night revealed in the right hands, this music could become compelling and not as predictable as I had previously found it to be. Not difficult to appreciate Benedetti's appeal and the audience clearly held her in a lot of affection.

    It was interesting to see the spread of ages amongst the audience which varied from old age to people who looked like they probably knew Beethoven personally! There was one (private) school in the audience and although the concert was totally sold out ( totally understandable), it did make me think had the audience aged with the music or is going to gigs like this something that happens when you get old? Similar problems to the jazz audience perhaps but jazz could do with people like Alsop to get enthused with the music.

    Incidentally, a few jazz links here. Alsop has resurrected the classical work of the great stride pianist James P Johnson whereas Benedetti has recently commissioned a violin concerto from Wynton Marsalis.
  • MrGongGong
    Full Member
    • Nov 2010
    • 18357

    #2
    Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post
    What is interesting is that the music is clearly composed through an improvisatory process even if the succeeding phrases are often predictable. .
    Is it?

    Comment

    • Ian Thumwood
      Full Member
      • Dec 2010
      • 4165

      #3
      Well, I would be curious to see the underlying harmony written out as chord symbols beneath the score and see the resultant pattern. The use of motifs which get developed is suggestive to me that Beethoven was improvising these phrases and then notating those developments that appealed. As far as the cadenzas as concerned, these are effectively extended versions of "breaks" that you get in jazz. I don't view them as being any different from the kind of improvisations that Louis Armstrong unleashed on the Hot 5/7 recordings.

      Comment

      • Stanfordian
        Full Member
        • Dec 2010
        • 9309

        #4
        ‘Heavy Sounds’
        Elvin Jones and Richard Davis with Frank Foster & Billy Greene
        Impulse (1967)

        Comment

        • Stanfordian
          Full Member
          • Dec 2010
          • 9309

          #5
          Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post
          You can understand why Beethoven doesn't have the cachet of Chopin, Debussy or Ravel.
          Puzzling! The cachet - in what regard?

          Comment

          • Ian Thumwood
            Full Member
            • Dec 2010
            • 4165

            #6
            Originally posted by Stanfordian View Post
            Puzzling! The cachet - in what regard?
            Should have made the statement clearer because I was referring to jazz musicians. I think jazz musicians admire Beethoven for his creative process but, like Mozart and Haydn, there doesn't appear to be as much happening harmonically with Beethoven as with the generation of players who followed him. Whenever I read about jazz pianists listening to Classical composers, the same names tend to crop up: Chopin, Debussy, Ravel, Scriabin, Delius, Messaien, Bartok, etc. It is rare to come across anyone citing Beethoven (although I am not saying that they do not exist.)

            The reason I think that Beethoven remains relevant is because he seems to have exhausted all the musical possibilities that existed to him. The music needed to change afterwards because Beethoven was almost testing the tools he had available to him to destruction. The whole point of the thread was that I am not particularly enthused by Beethoven and have never been interested enough to really explore his music. When I played piano, I did try sight reading some of his sonatas to improve my reading but found them really boring. I much preferred the conciseness of Chopin. That said, you feel that in the correct hands the music can be compelling and, I would repeat, this is the first time I have ever gone to hear Beethoven performed live and I was impressed by the interpretation of music that I have hitherto ignored because I felt the composer was of little interest as he was not modern enough for my taste. It is just a personal opinion as I had rarely felt inclined to explore Beethoven simply because my own experiences in checking his music out was that only the symphonies appealed and no one had been able to present Beethoven's music before in a fashion that piqued my interest.

            Comment

            • Stanfordian
              Full Member
              • Dec 2010
              • 9309

              #7
              Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post
              Should have made the statement clearer because I was referring to jazz musicians. I think jazz musicians admire Beethoven for his creative process but, like Mozart and Haydn, there doesn't appear to be as much happening harmonically with Beethoven as with the generation of players who followed him. Whenever I read about jazz pianists listening to Classical composers, the same names tend to crop up: Chopin, Debussy, Ravel, Scriabin, Delius, Messaien, Bartok, etc. It is rare to come across anyone citing Beethoven (although I am not saying that they do not exist.)

              The reason I think that Beethoven remains relevant is because he seems to have exhausted all the musical possibilities that existed to him. The music needed to change afterwards because Beethoven was almost testing the tools he had available to him to destruction. The whole point of the thread was that I am not particularly enthused by Beethoven and have never been interested enough to really explore his music. When I played piano, I did try sight reading some of his sonatas to improve my reading but found them really boring. I much preferred the conciseness of Chopin. That said, you feel that in the correct hands the music can be compelling and, I would repeat, this is the first time I have ever gone to hear Beethoven performed live and I was impressed by the interpretation of music that I have hitherto ignored because I felt the composer was of little interest as he was not modern enough for my taste. It is just a personal opinion as I had rarely felt inclined to explore Beethoven simply because my own experiences in checking his music out was that only the symphonies appealed and no one had been able to present Beethoven's music before in a fashion that piqued my interest.
              Probably Beethoven's most "modern" sounding works are his late string quartets.

              On another point - personally for some reason I have never found Alsop's conducting inspiring.

              Comment

              • MrGongGong
                Full Member
                • Nov 2010
                • 18357

                #8
                Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post
                Well, I would be curious to see the underlying harmony written out as chord symbols beneath the score and see the resultant pattern. The use of motifs which get developed is suggestive to me that Beethoven was improvising these phrases and then notating those developments that appealed. As far as the cadenzas as concerned, these are effectively extended versions of "breaks" that you get in jazz. I don't view them as being any different from the kind of improvisations that Louis Armstrong unleashed on the Hot 5/7 recordings.
                I don't write much orchestral music these days
                BUT I would suggest that your idea probably says more about you than Beethoven
                Most composers explore the material they are working with in many ways including what you might call "improvisation"
                but many composers of orchestral music are more than able to imagine it without playing an instrument then notating the "best bits'

                Why not get the score and find an analysis, there will be many available?

                Comment

                • Serial_Apologist
                  Full Member
                  • Dec 2010
                  • 37636

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post

                  You can understand why Beethoven doesn't have the cachet of Chopin, Debussy or Ravel simply because he was around too early to have the harmonic language to make the music appeal to improvisers who are switched on by harmonic language.
                  But JS Bach did??

                  Comment

                  • richardfinegold
                    Full Member
                    • Sep 2012
                    • 7659

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Stanfordian View Post
                    Probably Beethoven's most "modern" sounding works are his late string quartets.

                    On another point - personally for some reason I have never found Alsop's conducting inspiring.
                    Agree about Alsop. It’s always play it safe by the numbers. Orchestras love engaging her because she does reach out to audiences, and because she she checks so many boxes on the Political Correctness List

                    Comment

                    • David-G
                      Full Member
                      • Mar 2012
                      • 1216

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post
                      When I played piano, I did try sight reading some of his sonatas to improve my reading but found them really boring.
                      For me, the idea of Beethoven being boring is a contradiction in terms. Terms that spring to mind in regard to Beethoven are excitement, drama, revolution, liberty. But I perhaps know what you mean about the piano sonatas. In my experience the route to playing Beethoven for the mediocre pianist is a long learning curve - and I find that my interest in attempting to play a sonata is not maintained for the duration necessary to learn it properly. But played by a proper pianist, there is drama galore, and so much to hold one's attention.

                      Also, I do find that there is something about the modern piano that tends to dull the freshness and excitement in Beethoven. A good performance on a period instrument can have one on the edge of one's seat. The clarity of the period piano, the contrast between the tone of the different registers, the sense that the music is straining the limitations of the instrument, all contribute to this.

                      Listen for example to Tom Beghin playing the "Pathetique" on a modern reproduction of a Walter,

                      Ludwig van Beethoven (1770-1827)Sonata No. 8 in C Minor, Op. 13 "Pathétique"Grave - Allegro molto e con brio 00:00Adagio cantabile 08:46Rondo: Allegro 13:35A...


                      Ian, I was very interested that you said "no one had been able to present Beethoven's music before in a fashion that piqued my interest". I think your interest was piqued by the freshness that the OAE put into their performances, which is built on the virtues of playing on period instruments.

                      Comment

                      • doversoul1
                        Ex Member
                        • Dec 2010
                        • 7132

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
                        But JS Bach did??
                        … and Giovanni Antonio Pandolfi Mealli, Francesco Maria Veracini and many more.
                        Simon Heighes presents highlights from the Pyrenees Festival of Early Music in 2017.


                        3 days left to listen.

                        Comment

                        • Ian Thumwood
                          Full Member
                          • Dec 2010
                          • 4165

                          #13
                          Originally posted by richardfinegold View Post
                          Agree about Alsop. It’s always play it safe by the numbers. Orchestras love engaging her because she does reach out to audiences, and because she she checks so many boxes on the Political Correctness List

                          Got to disagree with this. I have seen her before with the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra who had a very high profile down this part of the world. Her tenure with the BSO generated a lot of publicity and the orchestra's did seem to benefit from this.

                          I must admit that I find the question of improvisation amongst Classical composers really interesting. By and large, my taste in Classical music is what you might called late 19th century - 20th century but that is with a massive caveat as there are elements that I particularly dislike including Serialism and a lot of the German composers like Brahms whose I find totally boring. I would not have listened to Classical music at all if it were not for discovering Gil Evans when I was about 17 and wanted to understand where he got his musical language from. As a consequence, I have tended to work "backwards" with Classical composers so that I started with the likes of Messiaen and French Impressionists as well as gradually filling the gaps in between.

                          As a jazz fan, you get the impression that it is often the harmonic element in music that attracts jazz musicians to Classical music. I would add that there is also a more practical element to looking at Classical music as the structure of some works is demonstrative that the composers have often refined their own improvisations. As SA says, Bach is the prime example but the whole use of "Ground basses" suggests to me that improvisation was a feature of many Baroque composers. It is fascinating to look at Classical composers as improvisers as the names which always crop up are Bach, Beethoven and Chopin. I don't doubt that Mozart was a great improviser too, There are countless examples of composers being cited as improvising at concerts and anyone coming from jazz is going to be well aware of Chopin's propensity to improvise during his recitals.

                          As Classical music became increasingly formal in the 19th century, the idea of improvising seems to fallen out of favour until the 20th century when composers started opening their ears more. Coming from the perspective as a jazz fan, Bach seems to epitomise the ability to improvise and there is plenty within his music which has parallels with jazz. He seems to have been a musician who was inherently interested in the mathematical patterns within music as opposed to having a wider agenda than Beethoven. If you like, Bach is pure music - there is nothing extraneous about his music. I have heard a number of Beethoven piano variations which are effectively a series of variants on themes. It has always struck me that there might be subtle twists in harmony or in the theme yet the variations are still recognisable as deriving from their source. I think one example if the Diabelli Variations although it is a long while since I listened to this music. From my point of view, Beethoven doesn't take these variations that far out - Bach is perhaps more ambitious from what music of his I have heard or sometimes played. The acid test for me is to compare Beethoven's ability as an improviser based on what little I have heard with someone like John Coltrane who was blessed with 150 years of additional musical development in conjuring up his flights of fancy. Looking at the ability of someone to improvise and judging them on their ability to breakdown the original Form , expand the harmony or even twist the rhythm of the music, Beethoven is very much of his time and not as sophisticated an improviser as Coltrane. It is not a fair comparison nor a particularly relevant one.

                          Turning things on their head, here is an early jazz composition written in around 1929 which is clearly taking it's cures from Debussy. Apparently the Beiderbecke piano compositions were improvisations that were notated by Bill Challis. Curious to hear music this "advanced" at such an early date in the history of jazz as well as recalling the fact that Debussy had only passed away about ten years before this. It has always amazed me that Beiderbecke's apparently autodidactic piano playing should have been so advanced and sophisticated although may be not much of a surprise he you believe he was playing whole tone scales on his cornet as a teenager in around 1919 and at least thirty years before Thelonious Monk.

                          Comment

                          • Tony Halstead
                            Full Member
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 1717

                            #14
                            Agreed, it's a rather lovely piano piece. Formally, it's actually a Rondo.
                            It does stay rather bogged down in C major although its several 'episodes' do temporarily stray away from the home key with some ear-tickling chromatic sideslips, but it never really 'modulates' in a way that produces any real tension or contrasts of tonality.
                            I would prefer to remember Bix for his awesome cornet improvisatory skills.

                            Comment

                            • Ian Thumwood
                              Full Member
                              • Dec 2010
                              • 4165

                              #15
                              Originally posted by David-G View Post
                              Ian, I was very interested that you said "no one had been able to present Beethoven's music before in a fashion that piqued my interest". I think your interest was piqued by the freshness that the OAE put into their performances, which is built on the virtues of playing on period instruments.

                              David

                              That is correct. I think that much of the interest was actually finding out that the sounds were not necessarily coming out of the instruments you might have imagined, The horns were fascinating to watch but it was finding out just how prominent that bassoons were that surprised me.

                              The YouTube clip would not have been apparent as being a period instrument immediately although you start to get hints of this some three minutes in. A lot of period music interpretations seem debatable as it assumes that the music was only ever performed in one fashion when the music was written. Of course, the various conductors in Beethoven's day would have has their own interpretation of the music and it is known from the debut performance of the violin concerto that some conductors took liberties with the music, We have no idea how the various instruments might have been played or indeed Beethoven's own thoughts on the limitations of the instruments that he has at his disposal. The Sonata does sound familiar and I think that I have heard it before, especially the second movement. It is a good interpretation and this music does appeal, Thanks for posting the link. To be honest, it does reinforce my opinion of Beethoven working at the threshold of the changes from Classical to Romantic. I always have an visual image of him playing her piano and parts of the instrument flying off in different directions as he pushes his ideas to destruction. I think I am correct in thinking that later pianos had a lighter action which facilitated composers like Chopin to produce compositions where faster runs could be executed.

                              One of my favourite old house in Clandon near Guildford which houses an old collection of pianos, many of them belonging to famous composers.

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