Best records with bass and drums plus horns

[Ian Thumwood]

Out of all the different lines ups and combinations in jazz, one of the most appealing for me are quartets which feature a front line of sax and trumpet with the rhythm section skinned down to bass and drums. I recall that Bruce once made a comment on this board that this was a line up that didn't appeal to him because he felt that the lack of a harmony instrument seemed to leave a gaping hole in the band. It is a risky line up and can produce music that is pretty austere and unappealing . I certainly think that it does demand more of the musicians and similarly asks a lot of the listener too. However, there is the added benefit that the absence of a piano really frees up the musicians with the bass and drums having, to some degree, fulfil the role of filling the void. It is, for me, the ultimate challenge in small group jazz and not always successful. When it works, I just feel that it produces some of the most interesting and rewarding jazz possible with groups like William Parker's quartet absolutely nailing the possibilities.

The first group I heard without a piano with the original Mulligan / Baker quartet which was very much a drafting out of the possibilities of this approach. This is not a group that I really got into and I suppose it was hearing Gary Peacock's album from the 1980's called "Guamba" with Jan Garbarek (when he still played jazz) and Palle Mikkelborg that switched me on to this format, It seemed a challenging listen at the time and I was initially wary of this kind of line up. As I have grown older I now find myself enjoying this piano-less approach more and more to the extent that I find it preferable to those where the piano is included.

Anyone else have any favourites / thoughts ?

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Well, there was this guy called Ornette who cut some classic records for Contemporary and Atlantic...not sure what happened to him...

BN.

[Richard Barrett]

The first side of Braxton's New York, Fall 1974.

[Ian Thumwood]

Well, there was this guy called Ornette who cut some classic records for Contemporary and Atlantic...not sure what happened to him...

BN.

Of course, and maybe the group with Cherry, Blackwell and Haden represents the moment when other musicians started looking at this kind of line up seriously as opposed to the novelty value. I think that Ornette's approach certainly opened the door to all sorts of possibilities and was instrumental in transforming this piano-less line up. The group is hugely significant insofar that the dispensing of the harmony instrument freed the music of the need to rely on chord changes even if I think that a lot of the music the quartet recorded was still hugely reliant upon tonal centres. They didn't totally throw the baby out with the bathwater harmonically but the group is probably one of the few jazz groups from the 1950's that still has a massive bearing on jazz that is produced today. I was listening to the Kirk Knuffke album with a similar line up a few months back and this group would not have been feasible without Ornette. However, I think that the pursuit of a more fluid approach to harmony is not the only challenge without a piano as it ideas like walking bass-lines , etc have to be reconsidered if this kind of line up is to be interesting in this day and age. I don't feel that Ornette's quartet offers the only solution to this type of line up. There is a terrific Dave Douglas quartet with Chris Potter from the late 1990's called "Magic Triangle" where there is use of counterpoint and other devices employed to make the music interesting, In fact, whilst Ornette's approach freed up the music, it is fair to say that the better groups using this line up these days give a lot of thought to the writing to ensure that the music stays fresh.

Anyway, it is a particular line up that I especially enjoy.

[Ian Thumwood]

Never heard this before. Generally I am not a fan of Braxton but this is surprisingly good.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Of course, and maybe the group with Cherry, Blackwell and Haden represents the moment when other musicians started looking at this kind of line up seriously as opposed to the novelty value. I think that Ornette's approach certainly opened the door to all sorts of possibilities and was instrumental in transforming this piano-less line up. The group is hugely significant insofar that the dispensing of the harmony instrument freed the music of the need to rely on chord changes even if I think that a lot of the music the quartet recorded was still hugely reliant upon tonal centres. They didn't totally throw the baby out with the bathwater harmonically but the group is probably one of the few jazz groups from the 1950's that still has a massive bearing on jazz that is produced today. I was listening to the Kirk Knuffke album with a similar line up a few months back and this group would not have been feasible without Ornette. However, I think that the pursuit of a more fluid approach to harmony is not the only challenge without a piano as it ideas like walking bass-lines , etc have to be reconsidered if this kind of line up is to be interesting in this day and age. I don't feel that Ornette's quartet offers the only solution to this type of line up. There is a terrific Dave Douglas quartet with Chris Potter from the late 1990's called "Magic Triangle" where there is use of counterpoint and other devices employed to make the music interesting, In fact, whilst Ornette's approach freed up the music, it is fair to say that the better groups using this line up these days give a lot of thought to the writing to ensure that the music stays fresh.

Anyway, it is a particular line up that I especially enjoy.

The Kenny Dorham/Ernie Henry, "Two Horns, Two Rhythm" has long been a favourite. Although outwardly conventional, Wilbur Ware prefigures Haden and Henry is at times McLean/Dolphyish, at least in tone. It's interesting too how KD alters his own approach. On Haden, his baselines with Ornette are elemental and at other times run in parallel or off on their own. Scott Lafaro is an interesting comparison with him on "Ornette", one of my favourites of the early albums, less earthy, more of a "voice".

On a totally different take, the first Hank Crawford album on Atlantic, pretty much the then Ray Charles small band minus RC, uses little or no piano is is very effective. I'm sure there are other examples from pre Ornette, the Max Roach outfits, "Reeds and Deed" etc etc. for example.

[Ian Thumwood]

The Kenny Dorham/Ernie Henry, "Two Horns, Two Rhythm" has long been a favourite. Although outwardly conventional, Wilbur Ware prefigures Haden and Henry is at times McLean/Dolphyish, at least in tone. It's interesting too how KD alters his own approach. On Haden, his baselines with Ornette are elemental and at other times run in parallel or off on their own. Scott Lafaro is an interesting comparison with him on "Ornette", one of my favourites of the early albums, less earthy, more of a "voice".

On a totally different take, the first Hank Crawford album on Atlantic, pretty much the then Ray Charles small band minus RC, uses little or no piano is is very effective. I'm sure there are other examples from pre Ornette, the Max Roach outfits, "Reeds and Deed" etc etc. for example.

Wasn't aware of anything by Kenny Dorham in this format.

Is there anything with just a bass and drums plus horns pre-1950 ? I cannot think of any small group who pursued this line up prior to Mulligan

The other example, of course, is Bobby Bradford and John Carter.

I was loaned a Tommy Smith quartet with Kenny Wheeler back in the mid 1990s and finding it quite stark and off-putting. I am not a fan of Smith as either a composer or soloist and the who effort seemed extremely dour despite Wheeler being on the disc. Smith always sounds to me like what I would imagine Kenny Dalglish to sound like if he was a jazz saxophonist!

[Alyn_Shipton]

Coltrane / Cherry The Avant Garde on Atlantic is worth a listen, Percy Heath or Charlie Haden and Ed Blackwell.

[Jazzrook]

Anthony Braxton's 2008 album 'Beyond Quantum'(Tzadik) with William Parker & Milford Graves - one of the most exciting free jazz records that I've heard.

JR

[Jazzrook]

Charles Mingus Presents Charles Mingus(Candid) from 1960 with Eric Dolphy, Ted Curson & Dannie Richmond.

Here's 'All The Things You Could Be By Now If Sigmund Freud's Wife Was Your Mother':

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJe_ZlFC084

JR

[Richard Barrett]

Anthony Braxton's 2008 album 'Beyond Quantum'(Tzadik) with William Parker & Milford Graves - one of the most exciting free jazz records that I've heard.

I like that album too. The second horn mentioned in the OP is a bit quiet though

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Charles Mingus Presents Charles Mingus(Candid) from 1960 with Eric Dolphy, Ted Curson & Dannie Richmond.

Here's 'All The Things You Could Be By Now If Sigmund Freud's Wife Was Your Mother':

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hJe_ZlFC084

JR

I was thinking of that too.... wonderful!

And Max Roach's "Deeds not Words" is what I was referring to above....

"Max Roach Riverside date is notable for featuring the great young trumpeter Booker Little and for utilizing Ray Draper's tuba as a melody instrument; tenor saxophonist George Coleman and bassist Art Davis complete the excellent quintet. Highlights include "It's You or No One," "You Stepped Out of a Dream," and Roach's unaccompanied drum piece "Conversation." This is fine music from a group that was trying to stretch themselves beyond hard bop."

[Rcartes]

Well, it's not quite what you were looking for as it lacks a trumpet, but the Sonny Rollins trio recordings from A Night at the Village Vanguard are pretty impressive, especially SonnyMoon for Two.

Volume 1 can be heard here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4t1...F0B7086F35F799

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Sonny Rollins' "East Broadway Rundown" with Freddie Hubbard, Garrison and Elvin. (Impulse). Not always successful but "We kiss in a shadow" is the gem for me. A must under recorded song and a standout take by Sonny minus Hubbard. I may request this on JRR in 2018...

BN.

[elmo]

Perhaps not that well known but the Steve Lacy/Roswell Rudd Quartet of 1962/1963 I think is a wonderful example of the pianoless quartet. Playing mostly Monk compositions both Lacy and Rudd show a deep understanding of Monk and these interpretations while fairly early on are still some of the best. On the Cuneiform album "early and late" from 1962 they tackle Cecil Taylors Song 2 - ace

elmo