ECM now available to stream

[Tenor Freak]

Great news, though there are a number of gaps in the catalogue on Spotify. Hopefully these will be filled in time.

I was listening to a number of old favourites (Garbarek, KW, Paul Motian).

[Ian Thumwood]

The Jazz Bastards review ECM. If you don't like to hear back language, you should probably not click on this list. If you also like the Muppets, it might be a bit of a shock hearing Kermit launch in to a load of expletives :-

http://www.jazzbastard.com/8321/488913-jazz-bastard-podcast-111-pillow-fight

The comments are quite salient and again pick up the deterioration of this label over 2000-15 with the label "becoming a parody of itself." Assumed to hear the comment that one of the reviewers finds Smooth Jazz more hard hitting. It is quite funny - the Jarrett album being described as "begging to be made fun of." Neither reviewers mince their words and, even if a bit rude and unpleasant, it is really amusing!

[jayne lee wilson]

Nothing but praise for ECM from me - especially for their extensive Kancheli series which amounts almost to an edition, all beautifully played and recorded, and often the only recording ever made of a given work....
Their Schumann Quartets 1 & 3 with the Zehetmairs and the Violin Sonatas from Widman/Varjon, marvellously atmospheric and poetic evocations of often underrated music; all the way back to the Berio Voci and Kurtag's Signs Games and Messages.... a Gesualdo/Tüür/Dean interweaving, a Webern/Bach album....

I always check their new releases eagerly.... as for sound, I usually associate them with spaciousness, depth and atmosphere...

[Serial_Apologist]

Nothing but praise for ECM from me - especially for their extensive Kancheli series which amounts almost to an edition, all beautifully played and recorded, and often the only recording ever made of a given work....
Their Schumann Quartets 1 & 3 with the Zehetmairs and the Violin Sonatas from Widman/Varjon, marvellously atmospheric and poetic evocations of often underrated music; all the way back to the Berio Voci and Kurtag's Signs Games and Messages.... a Gesualdo/Tüür/Dean interweaving, a Webern/Bach album....

I always check their new releases eagerly.... as for sound, I usually associate them with spaciousness, depth and atmosphere...

Maybe we should no longer look to ECM for interesting jazz.

[MrGongGong]

Maybe we should no longer look to ECM for interesting jazz.

I think it's only the Jazz Mafia who are really annoyed by Manfred Eicher who seems to have interests beyond that pigeon hole

[burning dog]

The Jazz Mafia don't even have the advantage of using violin cases to hide their side arms. sax cases too bulky trumpet ones too
small





definitely wouldn't get a contract with ECM

[Ian Thumwood]

I think it's only the Jazz Mafia who are really annoyed by Manfred Eicher who seems to have interests beyond that pigeon hole

Well, I don't think many music fans have objections about a label exploring beyond jazz and I am not familiar with their classical output to comment on Jayne's observations which may be correct.

I have been listening to a number of these podcasts over the last few days and have been quite staggered that a website like All About Jazz posts links to this stuff. I don't know anything about either presenter but they have made some pretty pertinent comments. Where I totally disagree with Mr GongGong is that there is some kind of conspiracy against ECM. The podcast is quite revealing insofar it actually reveals how powerful the label is at marketing itself to the extent that it is actually far more pervasive than I had imagined. A lot of the observations made are really true and match some of my own comments earlier in this thread that suggest that the label is a long way short of how good it used to be in the 1970s and 80's. The comment about it becoming a parody of itself is not unexpected and I feel it is refreshing to note that some of their more recent releases have been pretty mundane. The observations about the Jakob Bro disc are spot on but the review of the Keith Jarrett record is, if anything, even more on the money even if it is both cruel and quite slanderous. I cannot believe that either presenter has gotten away with saying these things as the criticism goes beyond the record being reviewed in this case even if it is sometimes quite funny. Some of the remarks regarding Jarrett are actually quite personal. However, my guess is that many jazz fans would be thinking exactly the same about these kind of issues which raise questions not only of what is jazz but surely the quality control by an individual when it comes to what they decide to release.

Some of their other comments such as the general accord given to Dave Holland match my own perception and they are quite kind to Kenny Wheeler too. Yet, it is fascinating to listen to two reviewers being extremely negative about ECM whereas my experience is that this label gets a very easy ride from most critics even when it puts out a load of very indifferent records. The Jakob Bro disc is a good example. Would anyone even notice is something this anodyne appeared on another label?

I don't find the Jazz Bastards to be too professional but I wonder just how much their opinions reflect a more hardcore and unforgiving jazz audience? All in all, I strongly disagree with the "jazz police" idea and find this podcast a contrast to other reviewers like the gentlemanly John Kelman whose reviews are seldom less that reverential when it comes to ECM.

[MrGongGong]

I've never listened to the podcast you mention Ian
and I don't believe in conspiracy therories either
BUT
it's interesting that you seem to have such a strong opinion about ECM when you say that you aren't "familiar with their classical output"?

Maybe you are missing the point completelty about what ECM is about in the first place?
The people I know who have work on ECM say very interesting and possitive things about it and the label is a perfect place for many things.

[Ian Thumwood]

I've never listened to the podcast you mention Ian
and I don't believe in conspiracy therories either
BUT
it's interesting that you seem to have such a strong opinion about ECM when you say that you aren't "familiar with their classical output"?

Maybe you are missing the point completelty about what ECM is about in the first place?
The people I know who have work on ECM say very interesting and possitive things about it and the label is a perfect place for many things.

To be honest, the eclectic range of artists on ECM make it difficult to define any dominant musical style. For me, the whole point of the label is, as has been alluded, is down to production. You could strongly argue that this places ECM at the forefront as a recording label dedicated to audio fidelity but I feel that Eicher's production values go beyond that insofar that many of the records he produces feature music almost specifically designed to allow the audio production to be celebrated. The podcast alludes to this as "navel gazing" and whilst I feel that this is a generalisation, there is a tendency to concentrate on introspective music whereas in the past Eicher was not hesitant in producing music that covered a wider territory of emotions whether it be Lester Bowie's Brass Fantasy, Dave Holland's groups, Bass Desires, some of John Abercrombie's more rock-orientated material, etc, etc. You rarely find this variety these days.

The podcast is interesting for a number of reasons which I will summarise for you to save you listening.. Firstly, it is suggestive that the label is very aggressively marketed which was contrary to the rather homespun image I had. The availability of all new releases in American libraries is cited as an example. This may come as a surprise . The other issue that was made that artists like Jarrett are perhaps over-recorded and get away with issuing sub-standard material. A current solo concert recording is cited in the podcast albeit the negativity of the review probably oversteps the mark even if it raises some interesting comments. The two reviewers clearly dislike the label's production values and then cite a Jakob Bro CD as an example where they believe absolutely nothing is happening within the music and they suggest it is just pleasant wall-paper music. The samples may be a misrepresentation but they have clearly be chosen to reinforce this view. A snide comment is then made about the Norwegian saxophonist and ECM Mette Henriette who both reviewers suggest is a really corny soloist - I can't comment as I have not heard her music.

The last Kenny Wheeler CD is reviewed and it is explained that this is a "twilight" recording made shortly before the musician's passing and that it palls in comparison with his earlier discs like "Double W" and "Angel Song" which are both cited as excellent albums. The reviewers obviously do not have much appreciation of the British Jazz scene and Wheeler is reimagined as more of a sideman than a prominent leader. They don't really get his contribution to jazz and seem unaware of his work outside of ECM or other records made under his name. There is plenty to disagree in with in their assessment but the conversation then moves on to Dave Holland who they both like and express surprise at the bassist leading a group with both Wheeler and Steve Coleman in the line up.

The reason I posted the link was because clearly there are other people out there who share my opinion that this label has seen better days even if the comment about being a parody of itself may be a bit strong. Some salient observations are made, especially concerning Keith Jarrett where there is a consensus amongst the reviewers that the solo performances are not worth listening to and that his best work is with DeJohnette and Peacock.

If you consider CD's as a "product", no one comes close to matching ECM for presentation and production values. They are exceptional in this respect. However, a reservation is expressed in the reviews that these production values can negate albums by edgier artists like Tim Berne and that ECM also release a lot of very indifferent material. Coming from a European perspective, it is probably easier to overlooking ECM's failings but this American podcast intrigues me because they believe artists like Jakob Bro and Mette Henriette fall woefully short of the expectations of an audience where jazz evolved. In a world where ECM adverts seem to dominate websites like All about jazz, I appreciate the fact that there are others out there with a less favourable impression to balance the sometimes uncritical reaction to ECM's output. Personally, I feel that some reviewers should deal more evenly with Eicher's records and come clean whenever ECM releases a turkey.

[Tenor Freak]

Listening to Pat Metheny's "80/81" right now. It does not sound to me like it was recorded in a cathedral. In any case I'm not bothered about Jan Erik Kongshaug's use of reverb, for one thing it's no worse than early Rudy Van Gelder recordings with his massive use of plate reverb, boxy piano and bass. Nobody recorded Charlie Haden (or Arild Andersen, Gary Peacock, Palle Danielson etc) better than ECM, IMO.

Not all of ECM's records have heavy reverb anyway - for example "Times Square" by Gary Burton does not, and that one swings nicely courtesy of Roy Haynes and Steve Swallow.