Surman has his mount, Monk his habits; we just potter

**Quarky** · 17-11-17, 17:33

.............................errr - where does John Surman fit into this week's selection??

**Serial_Apologist** · 17-11-17, 18:58

Originally posted by Vespare View Post

.............................errr - where does John Surman fit into this week's selection??

Just a cross-reference carry over from last week's, vesp.

Anything else??

**Quarky** · 17-11-17, 19:31

No, that's all for the present, thank you.

But looks like a great programme. And I see some Latin stuff on Jazz Now on Monday. Great, we don't get to hear enough from South America and Caribbean. Big stars with life long careers, and they pass by unnoticed. Just be way of example, Eliane Elias.

Thanks as ever S_A for putting us on notice.

**Alyn_Shipton** · 17-11-17, 21:22

Eliane was on Jazz Now earlier in the year talking to Emma.

**Ian Thumwood** · 17-11-17, 22:05

Chucho Valdes is one of those musicians you really need to experience live. I have always felt that Latin Jazz is under-appreciated by jazz fans and something that is far more respected by musicians. If you like, a lot of Latin Jazz does for percussion / rhythm what Bach does for Fugues and the combination of instruments can be massively complex even if it is extremely entertaining. I have seen Valdes on a number of occasions with a group which tries to refract the Hard Bop of Art Blakey's Jazz Messengers in to a Cuban style of play. From a technical point of view, Valdes is amazing and the physical endurance of his music probably has stamina levels on the lines of Elvin Jones. I have not heard so much by Rubalcaba whose star was certainly on the rise in the 1990s but the records I have heard include keyboards and really under-whelmed. Valdes is the only pianist I have heard who can play two different improvised lines at the same time with both hands., It is as if he can split his brain in two.

I can appreciate where Vespare is coming from because there is almost a micro-industry of Cuban / Latin jazz that does beyond some of the more familiar names like Roberta Fonseca. The albums made in the late 90s and 2000's by Miguel Zenon and David Sanchez are terrific and there are discs like the latter's "Molassa" and the former's "Ceremonial" put a lot of more orthodox music in the shade. I don't think that many of these players are shy and retiring and the output is certainly at the high end of the spectrum. The problem a lot of Cuban jazz had was that much of the music had not changed a gret deal since the 70's and when it enjoyed a revival with the Buena Vista Social Club, it was very much along the lines of a nostalgia exercise which stretched back to the 30's - 50's. Therefore, the contemporary element tends to get over-looked although it is there.

Note sure if Bobby Sanabria has ever been featured on Radio 3 at all, for example. His own big bands are cut along the lines of the Mingus Big Band and are aggressive affairs which take on board original compositions, Blues and even Frank Zappa. He has also produced some cracking records with student bands performing music by the likes of Machito and Tito Puente but maybe this is a bit too retro for Jazz Now and perhaps something JLU should address? There is a parallel heritage which stretches back to the 30's with the likes of Mario Bauza.

The only musician who is interesting is Arturo O' Farrill , the son of Chico who arranged for the likes of Basise in the 60s but who is mixing more serious music with Latin influences.

I have not heard David Virelles ECM output and was really surprised that he rocked up on Eicher's label. The results as supposed to blend Classical strings with Latin rhythms but I find this really hard to square with someone who I always associated with the great Steve Coleman. Incidentally, I have met this pianist and he is a really nice bloke.

**Quarky** · 17-11-17, 22:31

Thanks Ian for firming out my general impression.

I mentioned Eliane because she has apparently only recently "surfaced" at the general public level (Jazz FM and all that) - thanks Alyn for pointing out interview on Jazz Now.

Checking out the lady on the Web, there are lots of images of a young beautiful woman, when Eliane first became famous in the 1980's. Now Eliane is still beautiful but much more mature. It seemed a shame that I have missed out on her for all these years while inferior artists were presented to the general public ( Obviously if less lazy, I might have researched her in past times).

**Ian Thumwood** · 17-11-17, 22:42

Originally posted by Vespare View Post

Thanks Ian for firming out my general impression.

I mentioned Eliane because she has apparently only recently "surfaced" at the general public level (Jazz FM and all that) - thanks Alyn for pointing out interview on Jazz Now.

Checking out the lady on the Web, there are lots of images of a young beautiful woman, when Eliane first became famous in the 1980's. Now Eliane is still beautiful but much more mature. It seemed a shame that I have missed out on her for all these years while inferior artists were presented to the general public ( Obviously if less lazy, I might have researched her in past times).

I saw her trio featuring her husband Marc Johnson several years back but she didn't make much impression on me, I am afraid. It was all a bit bland is the want of so many piano trios these days. In fact, I much prefer listening to groups without a piano these days, especially groups without a harmony instrument. I love the more open sound this produces and the fact is seems a lot more dangerous. The Elias gig was pretty safe and unmemorable, to be honest.

**BLUESNIK'S REVOX** · 18-11-17, 19:01

JLU continues in its own "inimitable" and depressing way. "What is point?", as they used to say on Down the Line. Chris Potter was also in keeping with the atmosphere of empty wallpaper. "Its a long way from Dave Holland, Toto". So, I retired to my tapes, wine and Isabelle Huppert. On YouTube, at the BFI picking her favourite DVDs..."just stick zem in ze bag!", a phrase that could come in handy in Tesco.

**Ian Thumwood** · 18-11-17, 19:17

Originally posted by BLUESNIK'S REVOX View Post

JLU continues in its own "inimitable" and depressing way. "What is point?", as they used to say on Down the Line. Chris Potter was also in keeping with the atmosphere of empty wallpaper. "Its a long way from Dave Holland, Toto". So, I retired to my tapes, wine and Isabelle Huppert. On YouTube, at the BFI picking her favourite DVDs..."just stick zem in ze bag!", a phrase that could come in handy in Tesco.

Well, I must admit as to being baffled as who exactly is more annoying, Isabelle Huppert or Jacob Collier. It is a close call having been put off by "White Material" and it's colonialist racism several years ago. Just like JLU, French cinema can put out some stinkers.

Odd to think that Jacob Collier has been mentored by Quincy Jones. It all seems hugely impressive until you realise just how much his music is modified by computer technology which alters the tone of his voice. All very clever, but the applause is perhaps more justified for the technology as the artist even if the end result resembles a 1980s GRP production, Having seen him live, Collier has masses of talent but an inability to employ his gifts beyond the realms of pop jazz. You wonder where his one man band act will end up when the novelty wears off or when someone else stumbles upon the next technical / software innovation.

I only heard the opening moment of the Chris Potter gig but this is symptomatic of where a lot of jazz is heading in it's employment of technology. Generally, I think Potter is better than this even if I find him a curious musician as he is almost devoid of musical personality. I love his playing with the likes of Dave Hollands, Dave Douglas and Alex Sipiagin but I find that he sounds like a different playing depending what great he performs with. The whole technology thing is intriguing as it is surely the quickest way possible for the music to be quickly dated. The weird thing is that Potter's music sounds to be at the (current) cutting edge of things in many respects but it could quite easily tip over in to FM-friendly GRP-type stuff. The closeness to a lot of Smooth Jazz is something I find a bit disconcerting but, to be honest, Chris Potter is really the kind of musician JLU should be featuring.

**BLUESNIK'S REVOX** · 18-11-17, 19:53

Isabelle is OK. Hands off Ms Huppert. And, I think now in her 60s and looking twenty years younger. Which is hugely encouraging to the "advanced" jazz lisrenert. Switching off Dennis Potter, I chanced upon Sam the Man Taylor playing Lester Leaps In on Russian Jazz Radio. A quarter of the harmonic fluency of Beatrix Potter, but twice as entertaining. "Zoz old R&B guys had somz bon chops", as Isabelle would say. Over a bottle of Vin Belmondo.

**Ian Thumwood** · 18-11-17, 19:57

Originally posted by BLUESNIK'S REVOX View Post

Isabelle is OK. Hands off Ms Huppert. And, I think now in her 60s and looking twenty years younger. Which is hugely encouraging to the "advanced" jazz lisrenert. Switching off Dennis Potter, I chanced upon Sam the Man Taylor playing Lester Leaps In on Russian Jazz Radio. A quarter of the harmonic fluency of Beatrix Potter, but twice as entertaining. "Zoz old R&B guys had somz bon chops", as Isabelle would say. Over a bottle of Vin Belmondo.

Well, some of the most excited and committed playing I have heard on studio sessions has come whenever David Binney locks horns with Chris Potter. The results are there to be heard on Sipiagin's "Destinations unknown" and the "Graylen Epicentre" record which is very impressive,

**BLUESNIK'S REVOX** · 18-11-17, 20:18

Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post

Well, some of the most excited and committed playing I have heard on studio sessions has come whenever David Binney locks horns with Chris Potter. The results are there to be heard on Sipiagin's "Destinations unknown" and the "Graylen Epicentre" record which is very impressive,

But iz itz Le grand "Lockjaw and Jean Paul Griffin?", as Isabelle would shout out, wearing her French stripey T shirt and jaunty jazz beret at the Club Dameronia, a frequent haunt of "Les beats", post modernist critics, drunken actors, Françoise Hardy and les off duty Flic.

**Alyn_Shipton** · 18-11-17, 22:21

I rather liked Mr Potter's playing in this recent edition of Jazz Now: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09bxc1h

**Quarky** · 21-11-17, 03:51

Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post

Chucho Valdes is one of those musicians you really need to experience live. I have always felt that Latin Jazz is under-appreciated by jazz fans and something that is far more respected by musicians. If you like, a lot of Latin Jazz does for percussion / rhythm what Bach does for Fugues and the combination of instruments can be massively complex even if it is extremely entertaining. I have seen Valdes on a number of occasions with a group which tries to refract the Hard Bop of Art Blakey's Jazz Messengers in to a Cuban style of play. From a technical point of view, Valdes is amazing and the physical endurance of his music probably has stamina levels on the lines of Elvin Jones. I have not heard so much by Rubalcaba whose star was certainly on the rise in the 1990s but the records I have heard include keyboards and really under-whelmed. Valdes is the only pianist I have heard who can play two different improvised lines at the same time with both hands., It is as if he can split his brain in two.
.................................................. ...........

I have not heard David Virelles ECM output and was really surprised that he rocked up on Eicher's label. The results as supposed to blend Classical strings with Latin rhythms but I find this really hard to square with someone who I always associated with the great Steve Coleman. Incidentally, I have met this pianist and he is a really nice bloke.

Latin Jazz certainly does something for me, and it's not just the latin rhythms. Cuban bands can get too loud and too brassy, but I found myself sitting through the Valdes \ Rubalcaba concert quite happily, whereas a solo piano concert by an equivalent US\UK artist might be too much like hard work.

May be there was a clue in the following recital of Spanish piano music in TTN.

Surman has his mount, Monk his habits; we just potter

Surman has his mount, Monk his habits; we just potter

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