Chet & Paul: we may Misha but we never Mullova it

[Ian Thumwood]

The problem probably lies with the producer, Sushil Dade, who, former presenter Claire Martin once said, "gets to pick the discs and largely determines the content".

JR

This is a really interesting statement. It seems like the programme's content could possibly be dictated by the whims of the producer alone. The overall perception I am left with is that the programme is very UK-orientated and that there are far more technically accomplished players around than say in the 1980s but no one as interesting as the likes of John Taylor, Dave Holland, John Surman , Kenny Wheeler, Mike Westbrook or Mike Gibbs who were the "big hitters" when I was getting in to jazz. True, there were plenty of up-starts with some like Loose Tubes who I loved at the time and those like Courtney Pine who I struggled to take seriously. Looking back, there were players around then like Steve Williamson who I regret to say I probably over-looked.

These days there seem to be far more players around who have fantastic technique yet there are not too many younger players around who grab my attention. probably the most under-rated player for me is Zoe Rahman who I think is seriously under-rated and perhaps one of the most interesting British players around albeit other pianists like Alexander Hawkins and John Escreet (now resident in the US) seem to have the edge of their contemporaries whilst not getting the attention of the Laura Jurds of this world. I used to feel that the UK scene was probably second only to the US but of the stuff I have heard in France, I do not feel that the current UK is as good as JLU would make us believe. Who is the Mike Osborne or Joe Harriott of this generation ?

[Serial_Apologist]

This is a really interesting statement. It seems like the programme's content could possibly be dictated by the whims of the producer alone. The overall perception I am left with is that the programme is very UK-orientated and that there are far more technically accomplished players around than say in the 1980s but no one as interesting as the likes of John Taylor, Dave Holland, John Surman , Kenny Wheeler, Mike Westbrook or Mike Gibbs who were the "big hitters" when I was getting in to jazz. True, there were plenty of up-starts with some like Loose Tubes who I loved at the time and those like Courtney Pine who I struggled to take seriously. Looking back, there were players around then like Steve Williamson who I regret to say I probably over-looked.

Here's some recent Steve Williamson - which I had the misfortune to miss. There's other stuff linked to of Steve with Steve Coleman's Five Elements. Here he seems to be re-grounding himself; back then I thought Steve was pursuing a new direction, basing his improvising methods on the sort of rhythms spoken in Rap, which I always felt Steve had a more creative relationship to than Courtney, who uses that element less integrally, preferring to overlayer the genres, otherwise keeing them distinctive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3L2FsnDg2Ic

These days there seem to be far more players around who have fantastic technique yet there are not too many younger players around who grab my attention. probably the most under-rated player for me is Zoe Rahman who I think is seriously under-rated and perhaps one of the most interesting British players around albeit other pianists like Alexander Hawkins and John Escreet (now resident in the US) seem to have the edge of their contemporaries whilst not getting the attention of the Laura Jurds of this world. I used to feel that the UK scene was probably second only to the US but of the stuff I have heard in France, I do not feel that the current UK is as good as JLU would make us believe. Who is the Mike Osborne or Joe Harriott of this generation ?

I always felt Chris Biscoe was the alto player Mike Garick should have chosen instead for his Joe Harriott Memorial Band, when Shake Keane came over from the States in the late 1980s: I actually told Chris so! Here he is from 7 years ago - a couple of true greats no longer with us in the line-up - shame there's nothing more recent, as we see a lot of Chris down at the Bull's Head and Cafe Posk as part of his involvement with the Way Out West collective, which includes Pete Hurt and Tim Whitehead, among others. The clip that comes next actually has Ozzy on it, a favourite from a much-loved recording from 1971 - a different era:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg7AjQ-mDIM

[Ian Thumwood]

I really like that Steve Williamson track and it did put me in mind of a similar trio that you can hear on YouTube fronted by the legendary Odean Pope. This is the kind of jazz I would like JLU to feature although I think Brian Pace would make an interesting alternative to JJ. This is a terrific band even if the bassist and drummer are unknown. It does put in to focus the differences between Philly and London. I think Bluesnik will like this music too. Not enough Odean on Radio 3.

[Serial_Apologist]

Thanks Ian - will have to listen to that tomorrow. Nice presenter hat!

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Thanks Ian - will have to listen to that tomorrow. Nice presenter hat!

Yes, Odean's fine with me. Earlier this year he was given a significant award for services to jazz etc. An associate of Coltrane who recommended him as his replacement to Jimmy Smith..."that damned organ ringing in my ears ". So, maybe he wasn't such good mates after all! Fine albums with Max Roach which is where I first became aware of him. Must dig those out again.

[CGR]

You put yoghurt in your omelettes? I have Sabrina Ghayour's latest cook book "Feasts" which has a great recipe for a pear tart with the pears set in double cream, yoghurt, cinnamon , vanilla paste and sugar. She also mixes thyme in with this and the result is terrific although my niece and nephew refused to eat it last weekend. Nigella has been kicked in to touch my Sabrina but Hugh F-W is on the naughty step. They sound terrific, but the results under-whelm whereas Sabrina has got me raiding Waitrose to find all sorts of ingredients that I never knew existed.

To return to the question, I think jazz is increasingly something played by white music students. I never got too far with the Abbado / Mullava off-spring and turned over to listen to the local sports report. It does make you wonder what kind of jazz Julian Joseph listens to. The whole JLU comes up trumps about once every 8 weeks but it doesn't seem worth bothering with. To return to the JJR issue, it could be argued that this programme is a barometer for the taste of the jazz audience and whilst there are obviously "partisans" like Jazzrook who have pretty high standards, the tracks selected only rarely square with the kind of S***e Julian plays. It is an inconsequential weekend supplement of a programme that may reflect the current albums releases / gigs and is obviously parochial in nature or at least London-centric yet seems totally confused by the fact that most jazz fans prefer something that sounds like jazz as opposed to classical musicians tossing off lame Jobim covers. The amount of crap JLU manages to unearth is a veritable midden of lightweight pap.

Well said sir. I agree wholeheartedly.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

With reference to nothing in particular, but just listening to some of what now must be 40 year old C90s, and up popped Horace Silver's "Strollin" . I've got the album ("Horoscope ") but I'd forgotten how catchy and sophisticated this tune is, and how well played by the group. I know Dexter and Chet Baker both picked up on the tune later but it really is a comparatively forgotten gem. Horace really had it. " Nica's Dream" is also on that album.

BN.

[Jazzrook]

With reference to nothing in particular, but just listening to some of what now must be 40 year old C90s, and up popped Horace Silver's "Strollin" . I've got the album ("Horoscope ") but I'd forgotten how catchy and sophisticated this tune is, and how well played by the group. I know Dexter and Chet Baker both picked up on the tune later but it really is a comparatively forgotten gem. Horace really had it. " Nica's Dream" is also on that album.

BN.

You made me dig out my copy of 'Horace-Scope' - a very underrated and enjoyable album.
Have just ordered Silver's 1969 BLUE NOTE album 'You Gotta Take A Little Love' with Bennie Maupin.

JR

[Serial_Apologist]

You made me dig out my copy of 'Horace-Scope' - a very underrated and enjoyable album.
Have just ordered Silver's 1969 BLUE NOTE album 'You Gotta Take A Little Love' with Bennie Maupin.

JR

I hadn't realised until recently how much Horace Silver invested himself in the beginnings of jazz-rock.

[Serial_Apologist]

On the LJF front SA, I'll be interested to know what you make of Stańko tonight (with Vijay Iyer also on JN reflecting on his recent run of Wigmore concerts). And I also think it'll be worth casting an ear towards Valdez and Rubalcaba a week today... Trish was on JN earlier in the year and her band certainly had one foot in the tradition. Also it'd be better to judge Misha on what he's doing now than on a year old concert from the 2016 LJF.

I've just caught up on last night's Jazz Notes, and I think it was a wonderful programme. Not having really followed up on Stanko I don't really have anything helpful to add to the performance, which was marvellous, and reminds all neo-doubters just what free jazz can do, in its own right and when seen through prismatically in tackling more conventional structures in the loose way Miles really pioneered in those mid-60s sessions when he wore his long-worn repertoire almost to death. Who could "just" go back to playing standards again without taking the advances of the Davis/Shorter/Hancock/Carter/Williams band on board and pretend to be advancing the music... rhetorical question? I would need to know more about Stanko's to say whether or not this is what he and his band are about, but they are all certainly "in the zone". At 65 Stanko may be more thoughtful and reserved in his playing, maybe adapting his chops to the ageing process rather in the way the otherwise very different Kenny Wheeler did, but likewise sacrificing nothing in the way of depth and feeling. Vijay Iyer is always great to hear, whether playing with his choicest of associates or commenting; while British and others outside the diaspora look once more to leads from America, he seems inexhaustible: his is an influence now and for the future.

[Quarky]

While Stańko may represent the best in the Jazz tradition, comparison with Max's LJ Tuesday evening, shows Stańko's path is one path amongst many??

[Ian Thumwood]

I've just caught up on last night's Jazz Notes, and I think it was a wonderful programme. Not having really followed up on Stanko I don't really have anything helpful to add to the performance, which was marvellous, and reminds all neo-doubters just what free jazz can do, in its own right and when seen through prismatically in tackling more conventional structures in the loose way Miles really pioneered in those mid-60s sessions when he wore his long-worn repertoire almost to death. Who could "just" go back to playing standards again without taking the advances of the Davis/Shorter/Hancock/Carter/Williams band on board and pretend to be advancing the music... rhetorical question? I would need to know more about Stanko's to say whether or not this is what he and his band are about, but they are all certainly "in the zone". At 65 Stanko may be more thoughtful and reserved in his playing, maybe adapting his chops to the ageing process rather in the way the otherwise very different Kenny Wheeler did, but likewise sacrificing nothing in the way of depth and feeling. Vijay Iyer is always great to hear, whether playing with his choicest of associates or commenting; while British and others outside the diaspora look once more to leads from America, he seems inexhaustible: his is an influence now and for the future.

I would like to listen to the Stanko programme this weekend as I have not listened to his music for years now. I got the sense that he produced a strong body of work through the 70's and 80's yet reached a creative peak in the early 1990s with a number of exceptional albums including "Matka Johanna" which had the dream like up of Bobo Stenson with Tony Oxley and Anders Jormin as well as the brilliant album of Komeda compositions. I would have to say that these records really represent a high point for ECM and the austerity of the album with Stenson does plough the same melancholy furrow as Miles but the album has that air of Polish despair which is entirely different and one of the iconic sounds in European jazz. Towards the later 1990s he appeared to feature in a number of different bands before he led the quartet of young Pole which I saw in Southampton. I believe that he had severe dentistry issues by this point and had to change his technique when he used a set of false gnashers. The gig I caught was another of those concerts where you realise just how unnatural some of those ECM studio recordings are from a production point of view and something seemed lost outside the pristine setting of the studio.

For what it is worth, Stanko is actually 75 and enjoying something of an Indian summer playing with more contemporary American musicians. I would have to say I have not heard the recent ECM recordings although the stuff I heard his group perform live was more orthodox and not quite as free / experimental as the music of his I had grown up with. It just lacked a lot of the clout of his earlier work. There is another great album led by Gary Peacock called "Paradigm" where Stanko is featured in a piano-less quartet that includes Edward Vesala (I think) and the perfect front line partnership of Jan Garbarek.

I've not heard the latest Iyer record either. Again, I am intrigued but always feel that Manfred Eicher would neuter his presence and the music lose something of it's edge. As I mentioned last week, Eicher seems like a dour version of fellow German Jurgen Klopp insofar that he is nicking everyone else's talent and producing not so startling results. I wish I could be more positive about ECM but, as much as I love the label's earlier work, there seems to be more interesting stuff on other labels where the owner does not appear to shackle / restrict the output of their artists.

[Ian Thumwood]

I've just caught up on last night's Jazz Notes, and I think it was a wonderful programme. Not having really followed up on Stanko I don't really have anything helpful to add to the performance, which was marvellous, and reminds all neo-doubters just what free jazz can do, in its own right and when seen through prismatically in tackling more conventional structures in the loose way Miles really pioneered in those mid-60s sessions when he wore his long-worn repertoire almost to death. Who could "just" go back to playing standards again without taking the advances of the Davis/Shorter/Hancock/Carter/Williams band on board and pretend to be advancing the music... rhetorical question? I would need to know more about Stanko's to say whether or not this is what he and his band are about, but they are all certainly "in the zone". At 65 Stanko may be more thoughtful and reserved in his playing, maybe adapting his chops to the ageing process rather in the way the otherwise very different Kenny Wheeler did, but likewise sacrificing nothing in the way of depth and feeling. Vijay Iyer is always great to hear, whether playing with his choicest of associates or commenting; while British and others outside the diaspora look once more to leads from America, he seems inexhaustible: his is an influence now and for the future.

I would like to listen to the Stanko programme this weekend as I have not listened to his music for years now. I got the sense that he produced a strong body of work through the 70's and 80's yet reached a creative peak in the early 1990s with a number of exceptional albums including "Matka Johanna" which had the dream like up of Bobo Stenson with Tony Oxley and Anders Jormin as well as the brilliant album of Komeda compositions. I would have to say that these records really represent a high point for ECM and the austerity of the album with Stenson does plough the same melancholy furrow as Miles but the album has that air of Polish despair which is entirely different and one of the iconic sounds in European jazz. Towards the later 1990s he appeared to feature in a number of different bands before he led the quartet of young Pole which I saw in Southampton. I believe that he had severe dentistry issues by this point and had to change his technique when he used a set of false gnashers. The gig I caught was another of those concerts where you realise just how unnatural some of those ECM studio recordings are from a production point of view and something seemed lost outside the pristine setting of the studio.

For what it is worth, Stanko is actually 75 and enjoying something of an Indian summer playing with more contemporary American musicians. I would have to say I have not heard the recent ECM recordings although the stuff I heard his group perform live was more orthodox and not quite as free / experimental as the music of his I had grown up with. It just lacked a lot of the clout of his earlier work. There is another great album led by Gary Peacock called "Paradigm" where Stanko is featured in a piano-less quartet that includes Edward Vesala (I think) and the perfect front line partnership of Jan Garbarek.

I've not heard the latest Iyer record either. Again, I am intrigued but always feel that Manfred Eicher would neuter his presence and the music lose something of it's edge. As I mentioned last week, Eicher seems like a dour version of fellow German Jurgen Klopp insofar that he is nicking everyone else's talent and producing not so startling results. I wish I could be more positive about ECM but, as much as I love the label's earlier work, there seems to be more interesting stuff on other labels where the owner does not appear to shackle / restrict the output of their artists.

[Serial_Apologist]

You're right about Stanko's age, Ian. I thought somebody on the programme said 65, and should have checked. As far as any lack of edge that may be detected I would argue on behalf of a late period of greater depth than pure energy - think of all the great artists whose "third creative periods" are illustrative - though in Stanko's case he would I think have a hard legacy to match already in that respect: his own.