Chet & Paul: we may Misha but we never Mullova it

**Old Grumpy** · 09-11-17, 19:18

Very full exposition as ever, S_A...

Thanks

: plonk :

OG

**Quarky** · 11-11-17, 00:02

I hope your bottle of plonk is not disturbing enjoyment of Karin Krog / Joh Surman. Karin is head and shoulders above the current crop of Jazz singers that I have heard.

**Serial_Apologist** · 11-11-17, 16:13

Dee Byrne's Entropi's on Alyn's list today - how wonderful, I hope Dee is aware of this... and well done that person (not me) who asked for something from her new CD.

**Serial_Apologist** · 11-11-17, 16:17

Originally posted by Vespare View Post

I hope your bottle of plonk is not disturbing enjoyment of Karin Krog / Joh Surman. Karin is head and shoulders above the current crop of Jazz singers that I have heard.

Karin has much more hair than me, but as happens I do use that particular brand of shampoo.

**Ian Thumwood** · 12-11-17, 17:29

I caught the first few numbers and a bit of the interview of JLU yesterday. I wasn't impressed. It is strange how this programme seems to have it's own, unique agenda where the music seems to almost be jazz but rarely seems to nail the music. You get the impression that whoever is curating it would prefer something exotic ( a collaboration with a pop artists, a Classical-crossover, perhaps an element of World Music) as opposed to something that is genuinely jazz. Maybe it stems from having a significant birthday myself this year too but I really feel that I am from an older generation which has a distinctly different understanding of what jazz is and how good jazz might differ from bad. The Arun Ghosh track mixed Benny Goodman-esque wailing with a rock group and then the Victoria Mullava track offered a Classical take on Bossa-Nova which had me reaching for the off button.

It would be extremely shocking is JLU played anything remotely straight ahead or even Hard Bop. About 20-30 years ago this would have been expected and perhaps ridiculed if it didn't include something like this. There was a second hand LP stall in Winchester market yesterday that included a load of LPs from the 1980's. I was intrigued to see loads of Don Pullen / George Adams quartet records . This band was considered quite outside at the time but with a knack of making the music extremely approachable. It struck me that you just don't get these kinds of bands these days. One of the best CDs I have bought this year is a set of 4 Arthur Blythe CD with the likes of Bob Stewart, John Hicks, Pharoan AkLaaff and Abdul Wadud on them. Again, you don't seem to get players who come to the table with an approach like Blythe's and so much of Julian's selections seem cosmetic attempts at jazz at best.

I would also be curious to see what the demographic is for JRR and how many "jazz fans" switch off as soon as Jazz Line Up starts. I appreciate that jazz cannot stand still but the "magazine style" approach of JLU does strike be as being produced by someone who perhaps is not fully conversant with jazz.

Weird too read Liane Carroll praised on this board. To my ears, she is a cabaret singer and just the kind of act that JLU loves. (She would probably get brownie point for working with Paul McCartney too. This kind of thing tends to impress JLU more than working with genuine jazz musicians. ) Too often singers are generally slagged off on this board but , whilst not having listened to the broadcast, I would have thought that Angelique Kidjo was by far the most interesting of all the singers mentioned.

**BLUESNIK'S REVOX** · 12-11-17, 18:53

Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post

I caught the first few numbers and a bit of the interview of JLU yesterday. I wasn't impressed. It is strange how this programme seems to have it's own, unique agenda where the music seems to almost be jazz but rarely seems to nail the music. You get the impression that whoever is curating it would prefer something exotic ( a collaboration with a pop artists, a Classical-crossover, perhaps an element of World Music) as opposed to something that is genuinely jazz. Maybe it stems from having a significant birthday myself this year too but I really feel that I am from an older generation which has a distinctly different understanding of what jazz is and how good jazz might differ from bad. The Arun Ghosh track mixed Benny Goodman-esque wailing with a rock group and then the Victoria Mullava track offered a Classical take on Bossa-Nova which had me reaching for the off button.

It would be extremely shocking is JLU played anything remotely straight ahead or even Hard Bop. About 20-30 years ago this would have been expected and perhaps ridiculed if it didn't include something like this. There was a second hand LP stall in Winchester market yesterday that included a load of LPs from the 1980's. I was intrigued to see loads of Don Pullen / George Adams quartet records . This band was considered quite outside at the time but with a knack of making the music extremely approachable. It struck me that you just don't get these kinds of bands these days. One of the best CDs I have bought this year is a set of 4 Arthur Blythe CD with the likes of Bob Stewart, John Hicks, Pharoan AkLaaff and Abdul Wadud on them. Again, you don't seem to get players who come to the table with an approach like Blythe's and so much of Julian's selections seem cosmetic attempts at jazz at best.

I would also be curious to see what the demographic is for JRR and how many "jazz fans" switch off as soon as Jazz Line Up starts. I appreciate that jazz cannot stand still but the "magazine style" approach of JLU does strike be as being produced by someone who perhaps is not fully conversant with jazz.

Weird too read Liane Carroll praised on this board. To my ears, she is a cabaret singer and just the kind of act that JLU loves. (She would probably get brownie point for working with Paul McCartney too. This kind of thing tends to impress JLU more than working with genuine jazz musicians. ) Too often singers are generally slagged off on this board but , whilst not having listened to the broadcast, I would have thought that Angelique Kidjo was by far the most interesting of all the singers mentioned.

I had it on in the background as I cooked a mushroom omelette. I thought it was all pretty dire (I would say that); the opening track, by Ghosh? not Gosh, sounded like nameless aimless British funk jazz from the 70s of which there is shedloads in old geezers spidery attics unmourned. The guy who is the son of Claudio Abbado was mildly/quite irritating and another who doesn't want to "jazz labeled" (well, sod off then). As my Miles omelette neared completion, light and dancing on its feet like Red Garland after Coltrane, some JAZZ came on briefly, Herbie Hancock etc playing "Toys". Two minutes of that and then off. Like Ian, I can't fathom who this stuff is aimed at. Not designer omelette makers, that's for sure. (A spoon of Greek yogurt, makes the difference... Omelette a la Garland)

BN.

**Ian Thumwood** · 12-11-17, 20:05

You put yoghurt in your omelettes? I have Sabrina Ghayour's latest cook book "Feasts" which has a great recipe for a pear tart with the pears set in double cream, yoghurt, cinnamon , vanilla paste and sugar. She also mixes thyme in with this and the result is terrific although my niece and nephew refused to eat it last weekend. Nigella has been kicked in to touch my Sabrina but Hugh F-W is on the naughty step. They sound terrific, but the results under-whelm whereas Sabrina has got me raiding Waitrose to find all sorts of ingredients that I never knew existed.

To return to the question, I think jazz is increasingly something played by white music students. I never got too far with the Abbado / Mullava off-spring and turned over to listen to the local sports report. It does make you wonder what kind of jazz Julian Joseph listens to. The whole JLU comes up trumps about once every 8 weeks but it doesn't seem worth bothering with. To return to the JJR issue, it could be argued that this programme is a barometer for the taste of the jazz audience and whilst there are obviously "partisans" like Jazzrook who have pretty high standards, the tracks selected only rarely square with the kind of S***e Julian plays. It is an inconsequential weekend supplement of a programme that may reflect the current albums releases / gigs and is obviously parochial in nature or at least London-centric yet seems totally confused by the fact that most jazz fans prefer something that sounds like jazz as opposed to classical musicians tossing off lame Jobim covers. The amount of crap JLU manages to unearth is a veritable midden of lightweight pap.

**Serial_Apologist** · 12-11-17, 23:39

Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post

It does make you wonder what kind of jazz Julian Joseph listens to.

He was Courtney Pine's leading pianist back in the day when Sonny Rollins respected him; but Courtney, too, has become something of a cabaret act, winding his way through the audience, which has paid a pretty packet to get in, and shocking the ladies by squawking his sax at them. In those early days Julian played with sharp distinctiveness, advanced harmonic sensibility, and that tricky rhythmic way with note placement he shared with many of his similar background. He gave enlightening interviews straight through, whereas today one senses he's half-asleep and wakes up just occcasionally with the pertinent observation. I often wonder if this laid back demeanour is a subtle parody, as if he's asking his superiors, do I really have to extol this MOR stuff over the waves like it's groundbreaking? Am I now part of the Radio 3 Sarah More Peaches & whipped platitudes school of dumbed down presentation? And lastly... what has now become of the New Generation award if this, what Ian rightly calls classical musicians interpreting Bossa Nova, is what it produces? A nice legacy for those now moved on like Trish Clowes and Shabaka Hutchings to proudly claim? As for the London Jazz Festival, an even t I used to look forward to as the nights drew in, I'll keep my counsel on that until its over.

**Ian Thumwood** · 13-11-17, 06:46

Wush I could find the link but there was an interesting article on All about Jazz about the Japanese pianist Eri Yamamoto who had arrived in the States to study Classical music in the 1990s and suddenly switched to playing jazz after hearing Tommy Flanagan. I believe she studied with Reggie Workman and Junior Mance before being mentored by Matthew Shipp. Ultimately she has gravitated todays players like William Parker and Hamid Drake as well as have her own trio. What was interesting about the article was that Shipp was quoted as dividing the current generation of jazz musicians as between those who play from the heart and those who have come through college. Shipp classed Yamamoto in the former category and was dismissive of the kind of musician churned out by the American college system who he did not feel were honest performers or even genuine jazz musicians. This is precisely the issue with JLU as it seems to champion these college-produced players . I think that no one will produce the music from a technical point of view without a college education and a great technique is a given. However, the whole "tradition" thing is missing and the Mulluva-Abbado scenario is a prime example of this. It is a facsimile of jazz. I have not heard much by Trish Clowes but I would, I am afraid, put her in the category too. She is playing Southampton in a few weeks time and I will listen with interest although listening to her music on the radio (JLU!!) she seems a bit of a "plastic jazz musician" too. I wouldn't trade her music for Steve Coleman's, for example, who is similarly taking an innovative approach to composition.

My problem with JLU is that too many of these non-entities get featured. Fair enough, people need to make a start at some point but Julian presents these gigs like the musicians have arrived fully-fledged on the scene. There is also a lack of respect for the music from this younger generation who feel confined by jazz as opposed by being inspired by the music to become creative. The results , I find, are pretty dull.

**Alyn_Shipton** · 13-11-17, 07:55

On the LJF front SA, I'll be interested to know what you make of Stańko tonight (with Vijay Iyer also on JN reflecting on his recent run of Wigmore concerts). And I also think it'll be worth casting an ear towards Valdez and Rubalcaba a week today... Trish was on JN earlier in the year and her band certainly had one foot in the tradition. Also it'd be better to judge Misha on what he's doing now than on a year old concert from the 2016 LJF.

**Jazzrook** · 13-11-17, 09:31

Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post

I caught the first few numbers and a bit of the interview of JLU yesterday. I wasn't impressed. It is strange how this programme seems to have it's own, unique agenda where the music seems to almost be jazz but rarely seems to nail the music. You get the impression that whoever is curating it would prefer something exotic ( a collaboration with a pop artists, a Classical-crossover, perhaps an element of World Music) as opposed to something that is genuinely jazz. Maybe it stems from having a significant birthday myself this year too but I really feel that I am from an older generation which has a distinctly different understanding of what jazz is and how good jazz might differ from bad. The Arun Ghosh track mixed Benny Goodman-esque wailing with a rock group and then the Victoria Mullava track offered a Classical take on Bossa-Nova which had me reaching for the off button.

It would be extremely shocking is JLU played anything remotely straight ahead or even Hard Bop. About 20-30 years ago this would have been expected and perhaps ridiculed if it didn't include something like this. There was a second hand LP stall in Winchester market yesterday that included a load of LPs from the 1980's. I was intrigued to see loads of Don Pullen / George Adams quartet records . This band was considered quite outside at the time but with a knack of making the music extremely approachable. It struck me that you just don't get these kinds of bands these days. One of the best CDs I have bought this year is a set of 4 Arthur Blythe CD with the likes of Bob Stewart, John Hicks, Pharoan AkLaaff and Abdul Wadud on them. Again, you don't seem to get players who come to the table with an approach like Blythe's and so much of Julian's selections seem cosmetic attempts at jazz at best.

I would also be curious to see what the demographic is for JRR and how many "jazz fans" switch off as soon as Jazz Line Up starts. I appreciate that jazz cannot stand still but the "magazine style" approach of JLU does strike be as being produced by someone who perhaps is not fully conversant with jazz.

Weird too read Liane Carroll praised on this board. To my ears, she is a cabaret singer and just the kind of act that JLU loves. (She would probably get brownie point for working with Paul McCartney too. This kind of thing tends to impress JLU more than working with genuine jazz musicians. ) Too often singers are generally slagged off on this board but , whilst not having listened to the broadcast, I would have thought that Angelique Kidjo was by far the most interesting of all the singers mentioned.

I usually find myself switching off JLU soon after it starts. There seems to be a fear of playing any real jazz and the same mediocre mish-mash gets served up every week.
The problem probably lies with the producer, Sushil Dade, who, former presenter Claire Martin once said, "gets to pick the discs and largely determines the content".

JR

**Stanfordian** · 13-11-17, 09:32

Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post

I caught the first few numbers and a bit of the interview of JLU yesterday. I wasn't impressed. It is strange how this programme seems to have it's own, unique agenda where the music seems to almost be jazz but rarely seems to nail the music. You get the impression that whoever is curating it would prefer something exotic ( a collaboration with a pop artists, a Classical-crossover, perhaps an element of World Music) as opposed to something that is genuinely jazz. Maybe it stems from having a significant birthday myself this year too but I really feel that I am from an older generation which has a distinctly different understanding of what jazz is and how good jazz might differ from bad. The Arun Ghosh track mixed Benny Goodman-esque wailing with a rock group and then the Victoria Mullava track offered a Classical take on Bossa-Nova which had me reaching for the off button.

It would be extremely shocking is JLU played anything remotely straight ahead or even Hard Bop. About 20-30 years ago this would have been expected and perhaps ridiculed if it didn't include something like this. There was a second hand LP stall in Winchester market yesterday that included a load of LPs from the 1980's. I was intrigued to see loads of Don Pullen / George Adams quartet records . This band was considered quite outside at the time but with a knack of making the music extremely approachable. It struck me that you just don't get these kinds of bands these days. One of the best CDs I have bought this year is a set of 4 Arthur Blythe CD with the likes of Bob Stewart, John Hicks, Pharoan AkLaaff and Abdul Wadud on them. Again, you don't seem to get players who come to the table with an approach like Blythe's and so much of Julian's selections seem cosmetic attempts at jazz at best.

I would also be curious to see what the demographic is for JRR and how many "jazz fans" switch off as soon as Jazz Line Up starts. I appreciate that jazz cannot stand still but the "magazine style" approach of JLU does strike be as being produced by someone who perhaps is not fully conversant with jazz.

Weird too read Liane Carroll praised on this board. To my ears, she is a cabaret singer and just the kind of act that JLU loves. (She would probably get brownie point for working with Paul McCartney too. This kind of thing tends to impress JLU more than working with genuine jazz musicians. ) Too often singers are generally slagged off on this board but , whilst not having listened to the broadcast, I would have thought that Angelique Kidjo was by far the most interesting of all the singers mentioned.

Three years ago in Dresden I heard Mullova play with a combo that included her cellist husband and three others including Julian Joseph on piano. Although the concert was quite enjoyable I came to the conclusion that Mullova is certainly no jazz player.

**Serial_Apologist** · 13-11-17, 14:02

Originally posted by Alyn_Shipton View Post

On the LJF front SA, I'll be interested to know what you make of Stańko tonight (with Vijay Iyer also on JN reflecting on his recent run of Wigmore concerts). And I also think it'll be worth casting an ear towards Valdez and Rubalcaba a week today... Trish was on JN earlier in the year and her band certainly had one foot in the tradition. Also it'd be better to judge Misha on what he's doing now than on a year old concert from the 2016 LJF.

First I shall have to catch up on Stanko, intending as I do to investigate Dee Byrne's new weekly Get Down [sic] session, taking place off London's new hi-tech roundabout hub, and commencing tonight!

Ceviche, Old Street

https://jazzinlondon.live/2017/11/01/ceviche-old-street-2/

06/11/2017 20:00 free Chifa Mondays Get Down Dee Byrne (alto sax), Dave O’Brien (piano), Huw V Williams (bass), Simon Roth (drums) 13/11/2017 20:00 free Chifa Mondays Get Down Dee Byrne (alto sax),…

The address may be Old Street, the music, I anticipate, not. Ms Byrne is a tough cookie*, likewise her music (as JRR listeners will have discovered on Saturday), and let's wish her all the best in this venture.

*https://www.facebook.com/deebyrnemusic/

**Beef Oven!** · 13-11-17, 15:03

Is this thread-title S_A's best yet?

I challenge him to better it!!!!

Chet & Paul: we may Misha but we never Mullova it

Chet & Paul: we may Misha but we never Mullova it

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