To what extent do you agree with the Penguin jazz lists.........

[Lat-Literal]

........as being the best summary of jazz records through the ages?

What have they unequivocally got right and where are they wrong?

[CGR]

Never read it.

[gradus]

Afraid I've never heard of them/it.

[Quarky]

Vaguely rings a bell. Checking the Web, I noted: http://www.tomhull.com/ocston/nm/notes/pjazz-core.php

Few of the albums that spring to my mind are listed, but I'm no expert.

[Lat-Literal]

As soon as I started this thread I had a sense of deja vu as if I had asked the same question before. The replies may suggest that I haven't - and yes, the list provided by Oddball is what I had in mind but there are two which are periodically updated. A key list and a much more comprehensive list and they have been the basis to some of my recent exploring.

[Ian Thumwood]

I had forgotten about this book. I had a copy from the late 1990s which was interesting but I don't think it has been issued since the passing of Richard Cook, a journalist who was always worth reading. I don't think Brian Morton works on recent editions which must be difficult to compile because of the fact that everything is now downloaded and much of the jazz repertoire not represented on CD. There has been a marked diminution in issued jazz over the last two years with a number of records I have chased down being unobtainable through Amazon and costing ££££ through the labels directly.

The issue of rating records is usually subjective and I liked to match their assessments with my own impressions. Some of the comments made in the book seemed salient but I recall that some ratings slipped over a number of editions.

[Rcartes]

I had forgotten about this book. I had a copy from the late 1990s which was interesting but I don't think it has been issued since the passing of Richard Cook, a journalist who was always worth reading. I don't think Brian Morton works on recent editions which must be difficult to compile because of the fact that everything is now downloaded and much of the jazz repertoire not represented on CD. There has been a marked diminution in issued jazz over the last two years with a number of records I have chased down being unobtainable through Amazon and costing ££££ through the labels directly.

The issue of rating records is usually subjective and I liked to match their assessments with my own impressions. Some of the comments made in the book seemed salient but I recall that some ratings slipped over a number of editions.

Ian, there is one later edition, the 9th, published 2008: Richard Cook died in 2007, so may well contributed to that last edition. I haven't seen it: my copy is the 6th, from 2002.

I've found it, and its ratings, useful when exploring musicians I wasn't familiar with, but I've always felt that comes down too favourably in favouring present day musicians at the expense of those from the past. A small example: my edition gives almost as much space to Joe Zawinul as to Lester Young. I don't mind Zawinul (his work with Cannonball Adderly's groups was often enjoyable), but to put him (nearly) in the same class as Lester, albeit only in the space allocated, is grossly out of line, I feel.

[Serial_Apologist]

I don't mind Zawinul (his work with Cannonball Adderly's groups was often enjoyable), but to put him (nearly) in the same class as Lester, albeit only in the space allocated, is grossly out of line, I feel.

I would say that Zawinul was arguably less important as an influence in the improvisational field, but more important from the pov of expanding on compositional means available to the jazz composer, than Lester. I think they would shake hands on that being quits in any relativistic historical overview.

[Ian Thumwood]

I would say that Zawinul was arguably less important as an influence in the improvisational field, but more important from the pov of expanding on compositional means available to the jazz composer, than Lester. I think they would shake hands on that being quits in any relativistic historical overview.

Not really too fussed about Zawinul although I thinking Weather Report are enjoyable enough. They were "big" at a point in time where jazz felt like it was on it's knees. It is odd to see Zawinul favoured ahead of Lester Young but, as I implied on an earlier thread a few weeks ago, who is really listening to Lester Young now? I don't feel he is as much as presence as he was in the 40's and 50's even if his contribution is far more impressive as a whole despite any pretense the Austrian might have had as a composer. Zawinul's later bands only had a minimal relation to jazz and seemed to be more connected to World Music. Basically, it was a bit passed it's sell by date after the 1980's.

As I said, circumstances have made books like this redundant both from the aspect of CD sales and the fact that there are plenty of guides on line regarding the rating of CD's. There are no newer editions than the 8th which is a shame as it was a colossal achievement and one of those books which could lead to many wasted hours. I rely a lot on websites like All about jazz or Jazztimes to read reviews but also find Amazon useful. I have to say that I do pay more heed to Jazzrook's reviews on Amazon than any other website and if he gives something the "thumbs up", I am inclined to think that if it passes his "quality control" it must be worthwhile listening to. I always think that if I can turn Jazzrook's head to something new, then that is a massive achievement as he is a kind of jazz oracle.

[PUSB]

Is the reason Zawinul has more space not that there was more of his work available?

[PUSB]

What do you mean when you ask who is listening to Lester Young now? Do you mean muscians who might be influenced by him or "ordinary listeners"? If the latter, it is hard to know but I suspect there are quite a lot.

[Rcartes]

Is the reason Zawinul has more space not that there was more of his work available?

I don't think so. Totting up the album count for both men on Allmusic.com, we get 40 for Lester and 21 for Zawinul. I'm not sure that's totally reliable: it must be a pretty crude measure as it doesn't allow for reissues but still, I think your suggestion is unlikely?

[CGR]

who is really listening to Lester Young now?

Aspiring sax players who are learning from the recordings of a master.

I wonder how many non-musicians there are who really become absorbed into jazz. Almost everyone I know who is 'into' jazz plays an instrument for enjoyment, not ncessarily jazz, but simply enjoys playing some music.

[Ian Thumwood]

Aspiring sax players who are learning from the recordings of a master.

I wonder how many non-musicians there are who really become absorbed into jazz. Almost everyone I know who is 'into' jazz plays an instrument for enjoyment, not ncessarily jazz, but simply enjoys playing some music.

It is quite fascinating contrasting what jazz musicians listen to and what jazz fans listen to. From my experience, the fans often have a more encyclopedic knowledge of the music whereas musicians seem to be a bit more selective. The people who have run workshops I have been to frequently aren't aware of other musicians who you might have assumed that would have been conscious of with some quite big gaps amongst younger players. It is intriguing because I have found that some musicians I have spoken to obsess over individual players. Years ago I had a long conversation with Huw Warren ( top bloke) about Herbie Nichols who he idolised. It is surprising because you if you are in to jazz surely you must buy in to the whole package from ODJB through to contemporary stuff. I don't find bands like AEoC any different to listening to Freddie Keppard - it is clearly the same music yet not all jazz interests all jazz musicians. I was staggered that Trish Clowes composed a piece based on a motif played by Baby Dodds which, admittedly, made her go right up in my estimation.

I haven't been to a workshop for about five years. I concur with CGR's comment about the audience for jazz being made up of increasingly instrument player audience members. The audience does seem to be getting older and there does not appear to be the student following that was really obvious in the 80's and 90's. This audience seems to have disappeared and with it perhaps the interest in listening to all the music. Increasingly it seems to be all about Miles, Coltrane, Mingus, etc and not much interest beyond. Books like the Penguin guide were great because reading always made me want to explore further. The more I read, the more I wanted to check stuff out. I am not sure that this applies to a younger audience.

On a tangent, I think that jazz is now starting to reap what it sowed in the early 2000's. I spoke at length to a Belgian woman who was organising a jazz festival around 2002/3 and she made a comment that there was a real struggle to get younger people in to jazz and that the music needed to change to retain an audience. She was dead keen on booking a lot of the then fashionable Nu Jazz acts and suggested that bands like EST were the future. Her perception was that a younger audience had no need for players like Sonny Rollins since they didn't relate to something which grew out of musical changes that were 50 years old. The problem for me is that in booking the then modish groups of that time to the exclusion of the more orthodox, mainstream jazz of the time, there is a massive disconnect. It seems that younger people are probably listening to this music in isolation and not realising what came before and, even worse, not appreciating that a lot of this fashionable stuff back then had antecedents in better, historic stuff. For me, the absence of books like the Penguin guide makes it difficult to explore jazz. Maybe I was a bit unique in wanting to checkout all kinds of jazz and would buy stuff by people I had never previously heard of on a whim. If I was stuck, there were always other , older people around who could guide me. Not sure that there is an inclination these days to check the music out quite so thoroughly and if the availability of music on a site like youtube makes newcomers less inclined to investigate when you can hear really obscure jazz in an instant. Part of the fun of exploring jazz when I grew up was that you couldn't hear the music without either requesting it on the radio or buying the record. Just a thought.

[Lat-Literal]

Thank you for interesting replies.