Time serving in the jazz jail: one, two, free...

[Serial_Apologist]

[QUOTE=BLUESNIK'S REVOX;612267]

As an "old" Marxist in every sense, there is the concept of quantitive and qualitive change, the former producing the latter at a tipping point. Water to steam. The point I'm making is that jazz is increasingly not the determinant, it is acted upon and its essential quality is thus changed. I came into jazz for that very essential quality. I will leave by the same door.

BN.

Hm. I wonder what Ian thinks. My guess is that he will probably agree.

[Ian Thumwood]

I am with Bluesnik on this although I think that I probably have a wider definition of what the jazz "tradition" is. As I said, there are 100's of albums where I feel jazz has benefited from getting influence from other traditions whether it be Classical music, World music or even rock / pop. I do feel that simply "bolting on" these outside influences doesn't produce great jazz even though I sometimes feel that the results are agreeable. As I said before, there are plenty of ECM records from the 70's / 80's where this concept worked and for the betterment of jazz. I would not shut the door on these influences yet I would also argue that they also have the capacity to make the seem more vacuous. I liked the Andy Sheppard track but it was pretty lightweight and maybe almost akin to New Age Music. It was sub-Garbarek. In my opinion, it is jazz but not "great jazz" or anything beyond easy listening. the pipes did not bring anything "new" to the music and the part played could have easily have been played by a synthesizer. In fact, had I not been told it was a set of pipes, I would have said it was a dodgy 1980's keyboard.

What I would like to say is that there is almost a suggestion that jazz is not able to survive without some input from something different even it is to the music's detriment. The problem for me is that there is this "Sound of surprise" curse which now seems to mean all sorts of influences can be bolted on to different style of jazz and, hey presto, it something bold and exciting. Twelves months down this line, the resultant CDs are likely to be landfill. For me, the issue is that you need to find musical solutions and not merely cosmetic additions. I believe that jazz has got to be able the dots on the stave, the nuts and bolts of the music. There is where is really happens. Because of the infinite mathematical possibilities of music, I don't think that the potential of jazz if limited. If you stick to the "traditions", the music is generally stronger.

If you want , the new Alan Ferber disc is illustrative of how much potential there still is in more straight ahead jazz. There is no need to borrow outside influences and the music is amazingly fresh. I can see some point in SA's argument which I am not wholly opposed to but if jazz isn't able to stand on it's own, then what is the point of it?

[Serial_Apologist]

Tonight's Franglais band on Jazz Now could be an interesting example of what Ian and I are saying. I was most impressed with their challenging gig at The Vortex a month ago, whether Juice Aleem on rap will make a mess of it is about to become evident!

[Old Grumpy]

Tonight's Franglais band on Jazz Now could be an interesting example of what Ian and I are saying. I was most impressed with their challenging gig at The Vortex a month ago, whether Juice Aleem on rap will make a mess of it is about to become evident!

Verdict?

Must admit I turned off pretty rapidly; but this may have more to do with the hour than the music. Perhaps I should give it another go.

OG

[Quarky]

Verdict?

Must admit I turned off pretty rapidly; but this may have more to do with the hour than the music. Perhaps I should give it another go.

OG

Yes give it another go, OG.

The Lee Koenitz interview at the end is a real gem, and not to be missed!

[Serial_Apologist]

Yes give it another go, OG.

The Lee Koenitz interview at the end is a real gem, and not to be missed!

I kinda half-listened; it was late at night, and I couldn't make up my mind. I would put the music in the same category as another group of recent times in which Kit Downes played doomy neo-gothic organ, providing rumbling dubby basslines, and a drummer, not Jim Hart, supplied a complex continuum of broken breakbeats, The Age of Steam. Robin Fincker was a familiar figure in the F-Ire Collective, which included Polar Bear and Acoustic Ladyland, so readers will have something of an idea as to what was on offer here, which is not aural landscapes I find it easy to identify with - slow melodies stretched over hyperactive beats, improvisation in brief spasms - a matter of mental pictures associated with age I would guess. Mr Bearjeaut's trumpet comes across as less in the face in the broadcast than it did at the Vortex, but the rapper didn't feel to me to add much in the way of illumination or elucidation, notwithstanding claims being made on his oddness's behalf by a number of reviews and websites, such as:

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/reviews/album-juice-aleem-jerusalaam-come-big-dada-1765063.html

[Old Grumpy]

Yes give it another go, OG.

The Lee Koenitz interview at the end is a real gem, and not to be missed!

OK, I did - at least I was able to FF (no fast-forward, not that one!). Tracks without the c-Rap: Good; tracks with...

... well you get my drift.

I share some of S_A's sentiments too. I suspect this (without the rapper) would be better in a live setting than in a recording - though the audience sound somewhat half-hearted, or perhaps very small (in number).

Just about to listen to the Koenitz piece.

Feeling better already after a burst of Cherokee

OG

[CGR]

... but the rapper didn't feel to me to add much in the way of illumination or elucidation, ...

They rarely do.

[Quarky]

I kinda half-listened;
......... Mr Bearjeaut's trumpet comes across as less in the face in the broadcast than it did at the Vortex, but the rapper didn't feel to me to add much in the way of illumination or elucidation, notwithstanding claims being made on his oddness's behalf by a number of reviews and websites, such as:

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...a-1765063.html

I think a transposition of aural coordinates may be required.

Did you have baseball cap on, sunglasses, performed appropriate gesticulations?

I'm listening to this as Rap in the first place, and query does Jazz add anything of substance to that, more than usual synthesised musical effects?

Well occasionally. I was quite happy to listen to this, but I don't think there was an interaction between the two genres such as to produce a significant addition to the stock of musical knowledge.

[Old Grumpy]

Rap, music - shurely shome mistake...

... poetry, maybe.

[Serial_Apologist]

Did you have baseball cap on [...]?

I keep forgetting which way around to wear it - need to check next time I'm... downtown. Advancing years, you know.

[Ian Thumwood]

They rarely do.

I would have agreed with you until I could this band perform live a few years ago. This group is easily the best mixture of jazz and rap I have heard. Generally I hate rap but this band just seemed to whip the audience up in to a frenzy. They were one of the most entertaining bands I saw when the performed at Vienne a few years back and are probably one of the best groups I have witnessed at making a connection with an audience and getting people up and dancing. I would say that they truly managed to bring jazz back to it's original role as popular music yet I felt the music still had plenty of jazz clout. I particularly liked the trombonist's playing but the rapper, Racecar, actually comes from Chicago as opposed to the rest of the band which are French. (Looks like the clip was filmed in Lyon.) I spoke to him for about five minutes after the gig and it was interesting to find out just how knowledgeable he was about jazz and I remember discussing AACM. In addition, he was a top bloke. So, after hearing this band I would have to disagree and they absolutely nailed it. They may be "populist" in some eyes but I would love to hear this band perform again as it was just such good fun. Strange finding myself posting my enthusiasm about this but they were easily the best and most exciting group that year amongst the free gigs and, if I am correct, this was also the same time as catching one of the late John Taylor's gigs at the same venue. Sax Machine were very good indeed.

https://www.youtube.com/user/SaxMachineMusic

[Serial_Apologist]

I had a lot of time for what Soweto was doing a few years back - well, right back to his Jazz Planet anthem, which I first heard, must be 16 years ago! I never quite agreed with Calum's all-round hip hop dissing: Soweto's balancing between part-sending up the genre, along with the conventional jazz audience such a me, but not nastily in either direction, is persuasive and engaging. This link comes up with a lot of watchable listenable stuff, including a 2013 interview with Sebastien Scotney at Kings Place. Gary Crosby wanted jazz to get across to the younger black generations with the Jazz Warriors, linking back to the Skatalites generation with Jazz Jamaica, bringing on a lot of erwstwhile West Indian-born jazz musicians long occupied on the Reggae scene in belated acknowledgement, but if anyone's going to make it through I think Soweto deserves to, and there are some great current names in there among his collaborations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilcOFy3gYE4

Jazz as underpass music as opposed to underground...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-yVTFHsd2O8

Like Sax Machine, this isn't music that talks down to its potential audience.