Jazz and the silent majority

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  • Ian Thumwood
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 4084

    Jazz and the silent majority

    I was quite intrigued by this "Jazz chart" posted on All about Jazz which offers an alternative view to the more Euro-centric picture of jazz given on the BBC. The reason for posting is simply the shear number of records in the list which could be described as "jazz mainstream." It makes quite fascinating reading:-


    Jazz news: JazzWeek Radio Chart: January 9, 2017. Posted in “Radio” column. Published: January 5, 2017 @ All About Jazz


    On the list, I would single out the likes of organist Mike LeDonne, tenor man Eric Alexander, Wallace Roney, Richie Cole, Tom Harrell, Jerry Bergonzi, etc, etc as well as veterans such as George Cables and The Cookers as jazz musicians who are solidly within the mainstream. In fact, the list of new recordings that enjoy a degree of popularity in this chart is actually very refreshing as it in no way reflects the more modish approach of the media nor the kind of artists being chosen to perform at jazz festivals. It is also quite interesting that a good percentage of these artists are not amongst the listening habits of those people on this board ike Bluesnik, Standfordian and , to a degree, Jazzrook who are what I consider to be "purists" and sceptical of a lot of the more recent trends.

    I was fascinated to read this chart simply because it reflects the listening habits / play lists of an audience for jazz that doesn't fit the profile of many festival organisers. The jazz is largely post-bop with a lot of labels like High Note, Some Sessions, Savant and Motema who specialise in this music getting a lot of attention from listeners. I suppose a lot of the music follows on from the kind of stuff Blue Note was producing in the 60's yet these labels do offer material by musicians who have built upon this heritage with their own vocabulary and are issuing records which still sound relevant today. It is also intriguing to see there is still an interest in big band jazz too and the singers are largely the only artists where the music might be considered to be beyond jazz, both Norah Jones and Bria Skonberg flirting with pop albeit the latter's efforts reflect the pop music of a much earlier generation.

    On the face of this, it is pretty apparent that these tastes are not reflected in the board. There is a marked absence of the avant garde which is likely to remain pretty niche even amongst a "specialist audience" and the almost total absence of any European artists. Even heavy hitting labels like ECM are absent. British players don't even feature.

    What I find intriguing is that these are all musicians with a generally larger profile in the States. Where this kind of jazz is popular in the UK, it seems that the audience for Hardbop / post-bop always plumps for recordings in this style which are now over 50 years old. I am fascinated by Stanfordian's regular posts as I would also always agree that the records he has selected to listen to that I am familiar with are favourites of mine too. However. how aware are the likes of Bluesnik or Stanfordian of players like Mike LeDonne who has taken the soul jazz format of organ / guitar/ tenor / drums and recast it with contemporary material.

    As someone who can appreciate a range of jazz, there is a lot to admire about this "chart" which is largely "purist" and , with the exception of the Donny McCaslin disc, not at all modish. Does it suggest that there is really such a wide difference between US and UK tastes in jazz? I would also be fascinated to know what demographic is in place to manipulate the rankings. What age group of people are buying Mike LeDonne records, for example? The chart does suggest that pure jazz is healthier than imagined.

    I was quite amazed by the content of this list and it would be an interesting exercise to see who else on this board is buying these kinds of records. I would suggest that it is probably limited to the likes of Old Grumpy, Elmo and myself - in my case this would also include buying records by some of the artists for my Dad too.
  • Serial_Apologist
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 37355

    #2
    Hi Ian,

    I guess it's my problem that I haven't heard of a lot of the (presumably) younger names on that listing, and that the more familiar older ones aren't really names that would persuade me to buy or investigate further, because others have managed to set the bar so high that the rest seem to be lagging at varying distances behind.

    Once one has been listening to jazz for a number of decades, one becomes aware that the burgeoning numbers entering the scene, globally, predisposes the afficionade to a growing amount of attention specialisation. If one chose to take Berendt's The Jazz Book as one's broad guide to names and trends, it was quite clear that by the Third edition (1985 or thereabouts) the scene had swollen to the point at which names that had belonged in relatively easily (and usefully) separable categories were now to be treated as bedfellows: Keith Tippett and Paul Bley under the same duvet, so-to-speak, and that the resultant dilution of the more important figures being allowed a fair crack of the whip as important nay influential figures in their own right had led meaningful direction-pointing into a meaningless impenetrable soup.

    As a unifying principle for musical performance which builds relationships between musicians, musicians and listeners, and between listeners forming something of a community where communities are otherwise atomised by stress and the effects of the short-term pressures of modern living on any sense of rootedness, geographical or cultural, jazz binds by virtue of its embrace of complexity in its language(s) of discourse, eschewing the lowest common denominator markers of commercial ephemerability that consolidate group passivity in the popular body politic as a whole, I would maintain, for purposes of maintaining social and political compliance with the mainstream status quo. This oppositional element, which I would argue consists in the forward thinking processes permitted, indeed encouraged by wherever jazz, and which Keith Tippett has characterised as creative as opposed to curatorial, picks up without resort to backward steps in thinking from where the music is taking off right now, and characterises the kinds of jazz that have and will always appeal the most to me.

    Comment

    • BLUESNIK'S REVOX
      Full Member
      • Dec 2010
      • 4250

      #3
      I like to think I'm familiar with (and enjoy) all of them Ian. A lot are featured in the Small's broadcasts or similar and turn up regularly as recommendations on Organissimo. The point you allude to is purchase? And at my point of "maturity", I buy very very little music (hard) product these days. Shamefully, I stream from YouTube or Spotify etc or listen to WKCR and WBGO and French & Danish radio.

      Over the Christmas I've been listening to a shed load of Polish and GDR jazz, and although it is just obtainable on CD, as its rare, its far easier to stream.

      *I do still acquire the odd thing, the last being Christian Sands trio, Take One, Live at the Montmartre Copenhagen, Stunt 2015. Well in truth, I got it mainly for Alex Riel. Sands ain't that great a find.

      BN.

      Comment

      • Ian Thumwood
        Full Member
        • Dec 2010
        • 4084

        #4
        I agree with Bluesnik that I often listen to jazz on YouTube but I suppose the whole question should be opened up to take in listening habits as well as music played in concerts and gigs. The list is fascinating in that a good proportion of the artists are not young with the likes of Jim Snidero, Jerry Bergonzi, Steve Turre, Delfayo Marsalis, Dave Stryker, John Scofield, Jane Bunnet, Tierney Sutton and Mike LeDonne being decidedly middle-aged. This isn't a case of younger names trying to make a mark on the jazz scene but players in their mid-forties - seventies who have been well-established for years. Joey Alexander , the young prodigy, is probably the main exception in this list. The only concessions to a younger audience are players likes Robert Glasper and Donny McCaslin.

        Whilst the list is obviously one that would change on a weekly basis and reflects the jazz records which have been released recently, I think that it is quite salutary, especially if you are aware of the kind of jazz these artists produce. I suppose you can deduce the following from this particular chart albeit just how true this is I am unable to say:-

        1. There is an audience for more "genuine" and "unpolluted" styles of jazz which do not pander to modishness or popular influences.

        2. Whilst there is a demand for singers, this might reflect more obvious jazz singers like Shirley Horn and Catherine Russell. (I believe she is the daughter of bandleader Luis Russell.)

        3. There is still an audience for big band jazz.

        4. There isn't an audience for European jazz.

        5. There isn't an audience for "avant garde" jazz

        6. There is less "crossover" music in this chart which seems more in line with what a hardcore jazz audience would prefer.

        I take in board SA's comments but don't agree with the conclusions. Some of the statements are a bit silly. We are living in interesting times with jazz consumption and I suppose that the singer / trumpeter Skia Bronberg maybe typifies some of the issues I have encountered on the festival scene where there is more of a propensity to book younger artists who are tapping in to a popular / jazz heritage which is going to appeal to the fringes of the jazz audience. It is fascinating to see that this chart is suggestive that there is an interest in the broad mainstream of jazz and that there are musicians who are still finding things to say in this idiom. It is far from dead and, as the chart indicates, still relevant.
        The suggestion that these "mainstream" jazz artists are somehow not are serious or deserving as excellent players like Keith Tippett and Paul Bley is nonsense. They are important and this is not a recreationist soup of meaningless as suggested. The list offers a perspective from another country of what kind of jazz is popular and, by and large, it is quite positive and demonstrates that the audience for jazz is both knowledgeable and discerning.

        I suppose that the current scene for me is quite complex. There are artists from the mainstream, big bands, singers, avant garde and composers who are ensuring that the current jazz scene is vibrant. This is not necessarily reflected at Vienne nor indeed in many of the festivals that take place throughout the summer in Europe. A lot of the music that gets the media attention probably is not as popular as it might appear in the press. I am thinking very much about labels like ECM and ACT in this respect. I can accept that the avant garde remains niche and, as I have said many times on this board over the last 12 months, this is probably the most interesting area in jazz at the moment albeit the artists that I am listening to are certainly not the same avant garde artists that SA is listening to. I am particularly impressed with what is going on in Chicago and this is also absent from the chart. Where I think SA has totally missed the point is that what is currently been passed off as "cutting edge" in the press these days or what is being performed by 20-30 something artists is not that adventurous. The more modish elements in jazz that appealed to be when I was a teenager no longer have the kind of attraction that did. To throw someone like Keith Tippett in to the argument is to totally miss the point. The players listed in the chart are not an alternative to his type of jazz ( which in itself has been totally absorbed in to the mainstream anyway) but very much the broader picture which suggests people want to hear this kind of jazz even though it is increasingly difficult to find it being represented by many venues. If anything, these artists are producing more challenging music that the Scandi-jazz, Neil Cowely trio, which is, to be honest, pretty lame despite the contentions of it's modernity. If anything, a lot of the contemporary jazz billed as "cutting edge" is, in effect, little better than Smooth Jazz. I would class myself more on the side of the people compiling this chart.

        Christian Sands can be heard to best advantage with Christian McBride's excellent trio and I would suggest "Out here" as a starting point. It isn't too outside but a good listen all the same. The live record is good but the studio album would get my nod.

        Comment

        • BLUESNIK'S REVOX
          Full Member
          • Dec 2010
          • 4250

          #5
          My impression (and it's only that) is that there is a strong and loyal audience for "avant"/free jazz? One that is small admittedly, but constant, and perhaps more likely to attend gigs? I only base this on Organissimo which is itself self selecting.

          BN.

          Comment

          • Ian Thumwood
            Full Member
            • Dec 2010
            • 4084

            #6
            Originally posted by BLUESNIK'S REVOX View Post
            My impression (and it's only that) is that there is a strong and loyal audience for "avant"/free jazz? One that is small admittedly, but constant, and perhaps more likely to attend gigs? I only base this on Organissimo which is itself self selecting.

            BN.
            I think this is my perception too. There was an intriguing comment by John Abercrombie in an interview this year where he made the remark that he often feels like a stranger when appearing at some jazz festivals and that there is an increasing trend to book "non-jazz" acts at festivals. This mirrors my experience but I would also add that local venues like Turner Sims in Southampton rarely seem to book more orthodox jazz groups these days and tend to opt for more modish stuff which appeals to a younger audience. The Cookers gig that took place in November was largely supported by an older audience whereas this would not have been the case in the 1990s when I feel the spread would have been wider. I get the sense that the more genuine jazz groups seem to struggle in Europe and the veneration for American musicians that existed in the 50's and 60's is not so obvious. This tends to rule out the Afro-American heritage of the music on the continent and I have heard musicians in person like Tigran argue that this type of music has no relevance these days . There is seemingly a split between what American and European audiences expect of jazz. I know from speaking to the always informed and gentlemanly Kevin Appleby at Turner Sims is that the younger groups get bums on seats whereas American artists do not sell as well in Southampton. It will be interesting to see how many people turn out for Laura Jurd next Saturday and whether her brand of jazz captures the imagination of the jazz listener public in Southampton and to compare attendance figures with The Cookers which felt under-supported. Personally speaking The Cookers are a much, much bigger draw than Laura Jurd not only in terms of musical stature and reputation but also in ability. However, I would expect Laura Jurd and her snappily named band "Dinosaur" will sell well. I don't imagine that this would be the case with an American audience where there is probably a better appreciation of jazz nowadays whereas the Europeans are probably no longer quite so savvy. It is strange to witness this transformation which I think probably started in the late 1990's. I appreciate that the music has to evolve and I believe that the "chart" shows that this is happening but the appreciation and respect for jazz that was happening when I was getting in to the music seems to be reflected less and less in the UK and Europe. In my opinion, the obvious problem is a lot of the younger generation of players coming through that get the media attention are not a patch on what has gone before and those who are interesting are perhaps not getting the attention. I would suspect that there has been more written in Jazzwise, for example, about the likes of Laura Jurd than someone like Josh Berman or more about Neil Cowley than John Escreet?

            Comment

            • Serial_Apologist
              Full Member
              • Dec 2010
              • 37355

              #7
              Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post
              I take in board SA's comments but don't agree with the conclusions. Some of the statements are a bit silly.
              Well Ian, you've totally misunderstood the points I made. All no doubt down to my not having expressed myself very well. So, never mind. I'm sure we will be in total agreement about something else next week, just as we were last, or the week before that.

              SARDINEN USF: 10.april 2015 - ALEXANDER HAWKINS piano - NEIL CHARLES bass JON SCOTT drums
              Last edited by Serial_Apologist; 08-01-17, 18:22.

              Comment

              • Ian Thumwood
                Full Member
                • Dec 2010
                • 4084

                #8
                SA

                I think it is good to have different opinions! I appreciate that the more mainstream aspects of jazz do not appeal to you and I share some of your opinions regarding the need to create yet I felt that you were dismissing a whole swathe of musicians about whom you knew little about from the suggestion that you believed most of them were youngsters! It seems that these musicians do not get enough media attention and seem to be gradually squeezed out of most of the festival circuit in Europe. The chart very much reflected the kind of jazz I care about albeit, as mentioned, it did not include a lot of the more avant garde stuff that I really enjoy these days. (Which actually takes it's cues from the more progressive stuff recorded on labels like Blue Note in the mid 1960s such as Andrew Hill, Bobby Hutcherson, Sam Rivers, etc, etc.

                For me, Jazz can offer all sorts of possibilities and I don't subscribe to the idea that it is only the jazz that is "pushing the music forward" that is relevant. The music has so many possibilities and the pace at which it developed over the 20th century ensured that so much did not get fully explored. Since Christmas I have been listening to stuff as diverse as The Fat Babies, DIVA Jazz Orchestra, Tedeschi Trucks band and Mark Dresser, all of which offer all sorts of possibilities. My issue is with stuff that either purports to be jazz and isn't or, even worst, the stuff that doesn't want to be described as jazz!

                The YouTube clip is fantastic and exactly the kind of stuff that I love. This track really reminds me of Herbie Nichols once the bass and drums come in. Thanks for posting the link. Hawkins really swings.

                I saw Alexander Hawkins with John Surman about 2 years ago and felt that it was an amazing coupling as he was so different from the late John Taylor. I love John Surman's work but the fact that he had never played with Hawkins in concert prior to the Southampton gig made it pretty exciting. For me, Surman felt reinvigorated by playing with a musician who was so out of keeping with the company he usually keeps.

                Comment

                • Serial_Apologist
                  Full Member
                  • Dec 2010
                  • 37355

                  #9
                  Then you might like this, Ian. That's Django Bates's brother, Dylan, on violin. Shabaka Hutchings is on clarinet. The music has something of a post-Loose Tubes cum Dutch avant-garde feel to it that I like very much. I think Hawkins is one of the most important free jazz piano voices to come in the wake of Keith Tippett and Howard Riley.

                  Alexander Hawkins, Alexander Hawkins Ensemble, Jazz, Avant-garde Jazz (Musical Genre), Avant-garde Music (Musical Genre), Experimental Music (Musical Genre), Dylan Bates, Neil Charles, Otto Fischer, Tom Skinner, Shabaka Hutchings


                  Another is Robert Mitchell, the black player who came out of the first Jazz Warriors generation. Seeing him at Cafe Oto supporting Matana Roberts (with Neil Charles, the bass player on the Hawkins Trio clip) was utterly staggering insofar as his extraordinary virtuosity, comparable with Tippett, and complete grasp of the atonal zone was concerned. Need to check to see if there was anyone there with a camera to commit either of those two evenings to youtube.

                  Comment

                  • Richard Barrett
                    Guest
                    • Jan 2016
                    • 6259

                    #10
                    Alex Hawkins aside from being a wonderful musician himself has recently written some very insightful things about Anthony Braxton's work - here's a link to the first article



                    which contains links to the others.

                    Comment

                    • BLUESNIK'S REVOX
                      Full Member
                      • Dec 2010
                      • 4250

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
                      Then you might like this, Ian. That's Django Bates's brother, Dylan, on violin. Shabaka Hutchings is on clarinet. The music has something of a post-Loose Tubes cum Dutch avant-garde feel to it that I like very much. I think Hawkins is one of the most important free jazz piano voices to come in the wake of Keith Tippett and Howard Riley.

                      Alexander Hawkins, Alexander Hawkins Ensemble, Jazz, Avant-garde Jazz (Musical Genre), Avant-garde Music (Musical Genre), Experimental Music (Musical Genre), Dylan Bates, Neil Charles, Otto Fischer, Tom Skinner, Shabaka Hutchings


                      Another is Robert Mitchell, the black player who came out of the first Jazz Warriors generation. Seeing him at Cafe Oto supporting Matana Roberts (with Neil Charles, the bass player on the Hawkins Trio clip) was utterly staggering insofar as his extraordinary virtuosity, comparable with Tippett, and complete grasp of the atonal zone was concerned. Need to check to see if there was anyone there with a camera to commit either of those two evenings to youtube.
                      I've got a CD of Robert Mitchell! Hey, its not all Chet and iron oxide chez here. "Voyager", must dig it out and play. Talking of Keith Tippett, Julie' (Driscoll) acting debut is up on You tube in part. " Season of the Witch", a Wednesday play from 1969. She plays a bored young woman, typist from the suburbs, who walks away from job and parents and goes up to London, then Brighton, Cornwall etc to meet the beats, politicos and hippies. Of its time but well made in hand held "verite" stye and she's cool and convincing. Bit of a find.


                      BN.

                      Comment

                      • Ian Thumwood
                        Full Member
                        • Dec 2010
                        • 4084

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
                        Then you might like this, Ian. That's Django Bates's brother, Dylan, on violin. Shabaka Hutchings is on clarinet. The music has something of a post-Loose Tubes cum Dutch avant-garde feel to it that I like very much. I think Hawkins is one of the most important free jazz piano voices to come in the wake of Keith Tippett and Howard Riley.

                        Alexander Hawkins, Alexander Hawkins Ensemble, Jazz, Avant-garde Jazz (Musical Genre), Avant-garde Music (Musical Genre), Experimental Music (Musical Genre), Dylan Bates, Neil Charles, Otto Fischer, Tom Skinner, Shabaka Hutchings


                        Another is Robert Mitchell, the black player who came out of the first Jazz Warriors generation. Seeing him at Cafe Oto supporting Matana Roberts (with Neil Charles, the bass player on the Hawkins Trio clip) was utterly staggering insofar as his extraordinary virtuosity, comparable with Tippett, and complete grasp of the atonal zone was concerned. Need to check to see if there was anyone there with a camera to commit either of those two evenings to youtube.
                        I haven't heard Mitchell for ages but I would tend to agree with your assessment.

                        As I alluded, the most interesting British jazz pianist at the moment is John Escreet who I first stumbled upon as a member of David Binney's band but who has been touring with Evan Parker of late Strange to see him materialise on Sunnyside which is an edgier kind of bop label although he has also rocked up on Crisscross which is unashamedly dedicated to the jazz mainstream.

                        John Escreet: The Unknown album review by Budd Kopman, published on December 31, 2016. Find thousands jazz reviews at All About Jazz!

                        Comment

                        • Serial_Apologist
                          Full Member
                          • Dec 2010
                          • 37355

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Richard Barrett View Post
                          Alex Hawkins aside from being a wonderful musician himself has recently written some very insightful things about Anthony Braxton's work - here's a link to the first article



                          which contains links to the others.
                          Many thanks, Richard.

                          Comment

                          • Serial_Apologist
                            Full Member
                            • Dec 2010
                            • 37355

                            #14
                            Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post
                            I haven't heard Mitchell for ages but I would tend to agree with your assessment.

                            As I alluded, the most interesting British jazz pianist at the moment is John Escreet who I first stumbled upon as a member of David Binney's band but who has been touring with Evan Parker of late Strange to see him materialise on Sunnyside which is an edgier kind of bop label although he has also rocked up on Crisscross which is unashamedly dedicated to the jazz mainstream.

                            https://www.allaboutjazz.com/the-unk...udd-kopman.php
                            Ian.

                            Comment

                            • CGR
                              Full Member
                              • Aug 2016
                              • 370

                              #15
                              The link didn't work. I got a message from All About Jazz telling me to disable my adblocker. Cheek !!!

                              Comment

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