Alyn tucks in, and Bill Evans is COTW: 14-18 November

[Serial_Apologist]

Sat 12 Nov
4.00 Jazz Record Requests
Alyn Shipton with requests across the full spectrum of jazz, including music related to food and drink.

http://www.alynshipton.co.uk/blog

5.00 Jazz Line-Up
Claire Martin celebrates the life and music of veteran pop and jazz vocalist Tony Bennett, 90 in August, who has collaborated with a whole host of performers including Lady Gaga and pianist Bill Evans. With contributions from biographer David Evanier, singer Joe Stilgoe and from Bennett himself. See Fri 12.00

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b082k79h

12.30am Geoffrey Smith's Jazz
At this year's London Jazz Festival swings into action, Geoffrey Smith spotlights some of its star turns, featuring saxophonists Kamasi Washington, Joshua Redman and Tim Garland, pianists Brad Mehldau, Jason Moran and Robert Glasper, and vocalists Norma Winstone and Madeleine Peyroux.

If you're not tucked up in bed, Mummy will be very cross.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03vd2vc

Mon 14 Nov - Fri 18 Nov
12.00 Composer of the Week: Bill Evans (1929-1980)

Repeated 6.30 each day

11.00 Jazz Now
Soweto Kinch presents a concert given earlier this evening at the London Jazz Festival by the SFJAZZ Collective, who play interpretations of the music of Michael Jackson.

That's San Francisco, not science fiction. Or maybe.....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b082kd7q

Tues 15 Nov
11.00 Late Junction
Fiona Talkington marks 20 years since Bugge Wesseltoft fused Nordic electronica with jazz improvisation to create "nu-jazz".

Well, I thought, why not include nude jazz in the week's menu?

[Flyposter]

Sat 12 Nov
4.00 Jazz Record Requests
Alyn Shipton with requests across the full spectrum of jazz, including music related to food and drink.

http://www.alynshipton.co.uk/blog

5.00 Jazz Line-Up
Claire Martin celebrates the life and music of veteran pop and jazz vocalist Tony Bennett, 90 in August, who has collaborated with a whole host of performers including Lady Gaga and pianist Bill Evans. With contributions from biographer David Evanier, singer Joe Stilgoe and from Bennett himself. See Fri 12.00

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b082k79h

12.30am Geoffrey Smith's Jazz
At this year's London Jazz Festival swings into action, Geoffrey Smith spotlights some of its star turns, featuring saxophonists Kamasi Washington, Joshua Redman and Tim Garland, pianists Brad Mehldau, Jason Moran and Robert Glasper, and vocalists Norma Winstone and Madeleine Peyroux.

If you're not tucked up in bed, Mummy will be very cross.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03vd2vc

Mon 14 Nov - Fri 18 Nov
12.00 Composer of the Week: Bill Evans (1929-1980)

Repeated 6.30 each day

11.00 Jazz Now
Soweto Kinch presents a concert given earlier this evening at the London Jazz Festival by the SFJAZZ Collective, who play interpretations of the music of Michael Jackson.

That's San Francisco, not science fiction. Or maybe.....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b082kd7q

Tues 15 Nov
11.00 Late Junction
Fiona Talkington marks 20 years since Bugge Wesseltoft fused Nordic electronica with jazz improvisation to create "nu-jazz".

Well, I thought, why not include nude jazz in the week's menu?

SA

Maybe this will be of interest:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b082k8dz

Has anybody read this book? Any recommendation?

[Serial_Apologist]

SA

Maybe this will be of interest:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b082k8dz

Has anybody read this book? Any recommendation?

Well, Bach maybe, but Beethoven's late quartets appealing to a jazz lover seems a bit of a generalisation I've never heard jazz afficionadoes (or musicians for that matter) talk about Beethoven. Bach, Stravinsky, Debussy, Ravel, Bartok, Messiaen, yes...

Anyway, thanks for the link, Flyposter - I do my ironing at that time every Sunday, so I'll be listening.

[Alyn_Shipton]

Wynton Marsalis has often talked about Beethoven's late quartets. There's a mention of his close listening and analysing of them in his book "Jazz In The Bittersweet Blues of Life". Also Nat Hentoff is a great enthusiast for this period of Beethoven.

[CGR]

Well, Bach maybe, but Beethoven's late quartets appealing to a jazz lover seems a bit of a generalisation I've never heard jazz afficionadoes (or musicians for that matter) talk about Beethoven. Bach, Stravinsky, Debussy, Ravel, Bartok, Messiaen, yes...

Anyway, thanks for the link, Flyposter - I do my ironing at that time every Sunday, so I'll be listening.

That's very narrow minded. I go to the Wigmore Hall as often as I go to the 606 and far more often than I go to Ronnie Scotts. There is a huge crossover between the harmonic language of modern jazz and the harmony of late romanticism.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

I'm sure I remember Paul Desmond mentioning Beethoven's late quartets, together with Bartók, in an interview, and not just for effect.

BN.

[Serial_Apologist]

That's very narrow minded. I go to the Wigmore Hall as often as I go to the 606 and far more often than I go to Ronnie Scotts. There is a huge crossover between the harmonic language of modern jazz and the harmony of late romanticism.

It's not me being narrow minded! Personally I love late Beethoven (not the earlier stuff so much); it's just that I can't think of any parallels or facets in common between the late quartets and jazz that would bring them into a jazzer's conversation, but maybe that's just me. But I have to disagree with bringing in late romantic harmony. Aside from needing to be more specific in any such connection, (Elgar, Mahler, early Schoenberg, Richard Strauss, fgs?), Beethoven's death in 1827 generally places him as a pre-figurer of romanticism, rather than in its death agonies.

[CGR]

It's not me being narrow minded! Personally I love late Beethoven (not the earlier stuff so much); it's just that I can't think of any parallels or facets in common between the late quartets and jazz that would bring them into a jazzer's conversation, but maybe that's just me. But I have to disagree with bringing in late romantic harmony. Aside from needing to be more specific in any such connection, (Elgar, Mahler, early Schoenberg, Richard Strauss, fgs?), Beethoven's death in 1827 generally places him as a pre-figurer of romanticism, rather than in its death agonies.

I was refering to the use of extended intervals in the harmonic language of Debussy, Ravel etc. and the the use of similar harmony in jazz. Obviously not Beethoven.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I was refering to the use of extended intervals in the harmonic language of Debussy, Ravel etc. and the the use of similar harmony in jazz. Obviously not Beethoven.

I wonder - and apologies for the presumption if this is incorrect - but did you read the full stop after "Beethoven" in S_A's #3 as a comma? Your post here suggests that you are actually agreeing with what was said in that post.

[Serial_Apologist]

I wonder - and apologies for the presumption if this is incorrect - but did you read the full stop after "Beethoven" in S_A's #3 as a comma? Your post here suggests that you are actually agreeing with what was said in that post.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Yep, I read it that way the second time. At first I missed "the stop" and shouted, "let me off uptown, wasss he onnnna bout?"

Now playing Opus 130 Bb. Medici string qrt. Nimbus. An old 50p charity shop grab. Excellent.

BN.

[Ian Thumwood]

I totally agree with SA's comments which echo my own thoughts about Beethoven. Beethoven's symphonies and Overtures are the only aspect of his music that I am really familiar with and, in the case pf the latter, I would have to suggest that it requires an amazing degree of ignorance not to be impressed by the compositions. They are as such part of the DNA of Western culture as Shakespeare.

I have heard snippets of the quartets but have to confess to not knowing them as I am not a huge fan of chamber music although I will check out works by composers whose music strongly appeals. At one point in my piano lessons with Monty Worlock (who Flyposter will, I am sure, be totally familiar) I did nothing other than sight read Classical music as my technique was so bad that I was never going to be able to attempt to play jazz. This luckily coincided with the point where I was exploring Classical music and it was an interesting experience. For a while, I would struggle through all kinds of classical composers but I always seemed to return to Bach which seemed more rooted in the ideas of improvisation and changes in harmony that was appropriate for jazz. Also, Bach does swing and the appeal for the jazz community must be immediately apparent for anyone with an inkling about music.

For Monty, the two "big" composers were Bach and Chopin although it was pretty clear that he was switched on to the likes of Ravel and Debussy too. What was interesting was that when I brought "new" composers to him like Scriabin, they made an immediate impression ( he re-worked one Scriabin tune in to a jazz composition) but he had no interest in Beethoven and, to be honest, was pretty hostile to Mozart who he considered "only had three ideas." So, for me, I was educated to against the more "Classical" composers and when being taught how to re-harmonise standards with his propensity to use altered harmonies and a love of flattened tenths, the kind of harmonies I picked up when sight reading Beethoven sonatas seemed extremely dull and uninteresting.

I think that there are effectively three elements in Classical music that appeals to jazz musicians as a whole albeit a fourth, the use of extended forms, is probably the one are where I think there is increasing progress in jazz, especially big band jazz. The first appeal is surely harmony and as early as the 1950's academics like John Mehegan had sussed that it was the era of Chopin through to Debussy who were key in this respect and actually demonstrated in his transcription of Bill Evan's "Periscope." This seems to count against Beethoven who was fiercely fighting the constraints of his time but didn't quite arrive at the more radical breakthrough achieved by Chopin. Next, I think there is a rhythmic element which brings composers like Stravinsky and Bartok in to the frame. The third element for me is the improvisational / development of material which I strongly believe is what makes most music "great." Bach was king of this but I think that Beethoven was no mean improviser himself. There are accounts of Chopin's recitals employing a lot of improvisation.

Where I think I may side with SA is that Beethoven's approach to improvisation sounds, in the light of jazz, like a series of variations. The Diabelli variations are a good case in point and I have heard other "compositions" where Beethoven took (I think) "Rule , Britannia" and composed a series of elaborate variations. It is a intriguing process as I think that Beethoven was fervently breaking down the musical conventions of the time and at the "cutting edge" of music in the first two decades of the 19th Century but his "improvisations" seem very, very naïve in comparison with someone like John Coltrane or Keith Jarrett. In jazz, there is a desire to pull the harmonies apart, embellish rhythms and also battle against the tendency to produce phrases in 4-bar parcels or break down the structure of the material being used as a basis for improvisation. There is an excellent book written by Andy Hamilton where he interviews Lee Konitz ("Conversations on the improviser's art") and Konitz outlines the attention to detail Lennie Tristano employed when approaching improvisation, right down to deciding upon which beat within a bar a phrase might start. The whole scenario is fascinating and this is a book I would heartily recommend. I totally agree with SA that it is hard to hear Beethoven as an influence in jazz but would argue that it is easy to understand Beethoven being an inspiration. Conversely, I don't think it is unreasonable to imagine that Beethoven might have found the idea of jazz to be inspirational and that maybe the techniques available in jazz theory might have helped him to unlock the issues with music that he contronted at the time. I wonder what would have happened oif Beethoven had studied with Tristano?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Thanks, Ian.

Might be worth remembering in this context, that when the teenaged Ludwig met Mozart for the only time, Wolfie is reputed to have been not especially impressed by the younger man's compositions, but was astonished by his improvisation skills.

This is usually the bit where somebody points out that that story is highly apocryphal and probably never happened.

[CGR]

For myself, my enjoyment of listenting to and playing classical music is entirely separate from my enjoyment of jazz. I detest it when on some of those R3 drivetime 'shows' they mix up the genres. I love playing both (and folk guitar too) but they are in separate boxes when I think of music. Which is probably why I dislike jazz that is 'with strings' or over arranged.

[Alyn_Shipton]

In case you lot missed it on BBC Music Jazz this morning, the brief and largely unheralded return of Jazz Library. No Beethoven, and no strong orchestras - but there is a spot of early music related clavichordiana: http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p048gyw4