For peace sweet

[Ian Thumwood]

"I would have put her in the posh Cabaret / Musical theatre bracket."

Isn't that the case with most so-called 'jazz singers'.

The categorisation issue has always been problematic in jazz yet I think CGR's generalization is very wide of the mark. I don't think that the situation is helped by the proliferation of jazz singers (you only need to check out the reviews on a website like "All about jazz" to ascertain just how dominant jazz singers have become) yet I wonder if the problem is more symptom of lack of originality. I must admit to really liking jazz singers and think we are in a "Golden Age" with the likes of an older, established generation such as Norma Winstone, Dianne Reeves and Cassandra Wilson effectively defining the art. But this is only the tip of the iceberg. I would struggle to see how someone like Gretchen Parlato would be considered a cabaret artist and I have heard artists like Liz Wright and Luciana Souza who offer widely different approaches to singing.

The problem is more one of repertoire and format. There are too many albums that rely of the Broadway song book or feature a backing trio of piano / bass / drums. Sometimes I look at the reviews and you realise that is a very large base of female singing who work within this field and, even if some might have a degree of "cabaret" about them, I bet the majority are the product of the stringent jazz education. The issue is more to do with the perception that this is a tradition that is someway fixed like Gypsy Jazz as opposed to something that, in the most successful examples, reflects the music of the time. This , for me, is a stumbling block with Cecile McLoren Salvant setting aside the fact that her performances are too mannered. Never been a fan of Christine Tobin but the track recently played by her group this week was very good and neatly sums up what I feel differentiates between what is credible jazz and what is almost cosmetics.

What I do find interesting is that non-jazz vocalists working in a jazz context don't often get the same degree of criticism. I think that recent efforts by the likes of Annie Lennox deserve the opprobrium levelled against their efforts which cover hackneyed material performed elsewhere no to mention to notorious effort by Tiri Tikanawa in the early 1990s. However, critics seem less hostile with efforts such as folk singer Aoife O'Donovan's contribution of Dave Douglas' album of hymns called "Be still" or say the even more successful collaboration between Robert Fonseca and Fatamatou Diawara who comes from a African tradition totally alien to jazz yet produced a true meeting of minds.

[CGR]

My point is that there are far too many singers who go on stage and sing the American Songbook and latin standards with little or no extemporization, ad-libbing or spontaneity. That is what I consider a cabaret style that has little to do with jazz. Its not too bad if they just sing the head and then let the musicians get on with the interesting bit, but too often they dominate the stage and try to control the number of choruses soloists take etc,.

[Quarky]

My point is that there are far too many singers who go on stage and sing the American Songbook and latin standards with little or no extemporization, ad-libbing or spontaneity. That is what I consider a cabaret style that has little to do with jazz. Its not too bad if they just sing the head and then let the musicians get on with the interesting bit, but too often they dominate the stage and try to control the number of choruses soloists take etc,.

Regretfully, I don't these days frequent the Jazz Clubs - but just turn on Jazz FM, and these "far too many singers" will be heard.

[elmo]

I have to agree also regarding singers with the exceptions of Billie, Betty Carter, Dianne Reeves and Carmen Lundy I find I very rarely listen to vocalists - they just don't fire my imagination. I get so much more from instrumentalists. Perhaps I am being a bit unfair but a lot of the time it's jazz for people who don't like jazz.
I think a large proportion of people like easily assimilable music and as such they find music with limited improvisation more to their taste. All sorts of singers appear on JRR, Jazz line up etc that probably don't appeal to members of this Bored.

elmo

[burning dog]

Billie Holiday used limited ( but extremely nuanced) improvisation to a lot of modern ears I'd have thought.

I'm not convinced Jazz is largely "about improvisation" It's an important part but I think Jazz became popular at a time when other music was at it most composed and fixed.

Also there's a denial (among jazz fans) about the influence of jazz on cabaret music, crooners and the like. What it is is "Old fashioned" to our ears, but not the general public, including even a large audience of young people. Jamie Cullum is a case in point. People without a hint of irony say he's "brought jazz up to date" I expect their parents associate jazz with Kenny Ball on the Morecambe and Wise show.

[CGR]

"I'm not convinced Jazz is largely "about improvisation" "

Jazz is nothing without improvising & extemporising. That, together with swing feel, is the central core of the music.

[burning dog]

"I'm not convinced Jazz is largely "about improvisation" "

Jazz is nothing without improvising & extemporising. That, together with swing feel, is the central core of the music.

Don't blow a gasket mate! Swing is pretty much essential but not all jazz has that much improvisation. I'll correct my statement to my exact position jazz can exist without much improvisation, or improvisation as a layman would recognize

I think the best "jazz" on this track is when Billie is singing though its much closer to the written melody than the other solos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPXIIokdc1U

[Quarky]

I think the best "jazz" on this track is when Billie is singing though its much closer to the written melody than the other solos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPXIIokdc1U

[Ian Thumwood]

Been listening to the CD that this concert promoted. it seems quite appropriate to make a nice link in this thread as the concert features the fabulous Belmondo brothers backed by a symphony orchestra performing the music of Milton Nascimento who is the featured singer - after about 10 minutes. I find Nascimento's song writing really poignant and far, far better than the music of Jobim which is frankly done to death. If you think that the apogee of Brazilian and jazz fusion is the wretched Getz / Gilberto record, this concert offers some great tunes bathed in a kind of French Impressionism. Can't think of many tunes that instantly grab your attention as "Ponta de Areia" which is believe is written about an old, deserted railway station. I love music and hope I can get a few converts by posting this link too:-

I am in the audience somewhere.

[CGR]

"I find Nascimento's song writing really poignant and far, far better than the music of Jobim which is frankly done to death. If you think that the apogee of Brazilian and jazz fusion is the wretched Getz / Gilberto record,..."

Yes. But that Bossa Nova period and its legacy provided us with some great tunes (and great eye-candy).

Didn't like the inclusion of the orchestra in that concert though.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

"I find Nascimento's song writing really poignant and far, far better than the music of Jobim which is frankly done to death. If you think that the apogee of Brazilian and jazz fusion is the wretched Getz / Gilberto record,..."

Yes. But that Bossa Nova period and its legacy provided us with some great tunes (and great eye-candy).

Didn't like the inclusion of the orchestra in that concert though.

Stan Getz, the two Gilbertos, Jobin; Satan's spawn whose only purpose was and is to suck naive and virginal jazz listeners into a mire of pseudo bossa darkness & infamy. Plus evil tunefulness and crossover popularity.

Thankfully, a far wiser "Pope" prevails here and these innocents and others can be shown the ONE true way. Or publicly stoned with old Verve LPs. Let us pray..."Hallowed be our b/w absolutism... "

BN.

[Serial_Apologist]

Reactionary revisionist deviationism, definitely - no doubt about that.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Reactionary revisionist deviationism, definitely - no doubt about that.

An anagram of "Stan Getz Bossa" is Satan gobs zest. What does that tell you...

BN.