Alfie (1966) - things I didn't know.

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  • Serial_Apologist
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 37814

    Alfie (1966) - things I didn't know.

    This seemed the most appropriate place to post this. Having just now picked up a copy of the original 1966 movie "Alfie" from my local St Sprees for the unbelievably generous price of £5, I decided on a bit of searching around the net to clear up several details previously unclear in my mind.

    Of course it is well known that Sonny Rollins composed most of the themes that were used hanging around in Ronnie's after-hours, after everyone had gone home to bed, absorbing the vibes from the innumerable gigs which he felt resonating from its walls. The resulting skeletal ideas were more or less improvised into the episodes which atmospherically underline the unfolding plot, using, among others, Stan Tracey, bassist Rick Laird (later to be John McLaughlin's bass guitarist in the Mahavishnu Orchestra, of course), the legendary drummer Phil Seamen, Ronnie Scott himself, and, I think I read somewhere, the Jamaican-born guitarist Ernest Ranglin. Presumably others were in that line-up, though I have not been able to source details - suffice to say that, much as I love the version of these themes which Rollins committe3d to vinyl a year later, on returning to America, I don't think he managed to recapture the extraordinary feel of his playing with the British guys in that impromptu studio session.

    Among a number of things about the latter that I hadn't realised were that, 1) Stan himself provided the plaintive "Little Malcolm Loves his Dad" theme (C, Eb, Bb, Bb, Ab, Eb, G - assuming the key of Ab, which may not actually be the case), but this was not acknowledged in the credits; and 2) that on most reissues of the "original" it is the American release we see, which has Cher singing the Bacharach/David "Alfie" theme, not Cilla Black, who was on the British release, and who of course made the hit with her subsequent recording of the tune.

    Next, people will recall a trad band fronted by a female singer in the pub brawl scene. I had long wondered who the singer was, because it obviously wasn't Ottilie Patterson, Beryl Bryden or Julie London; and it turns out to have been one Queenie Watts, (1923-1980) born under the name of Mary Spenton and a genuine diamond cockney lady who landladied a number of pubs in the East End with hubby "Slim" Watts, about whom there is little information to be found, where she also sang fronting her own 8-piece. There is a moment in the film where she is hit on the side of her face by a flying bit of broken furniture, yet carries on singing, spiritedly ignoring the blow! It further turns out that she featured in a "Portrait of Queenie" a year or two before the making of "Alfie": a film made by the BFI, in which she sang standards and originals accompanied by Stan Tracey with his band. I never knew any of this! An album of these songs was made and released on British Columbia in 1966. Of this I have no details (I wonder if anyone else does), but the opening moments of "Portrait of Queenie" are linked below:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FjDmucYKvU.

    This (and other clips and links to some wonderful reminiscent footage of the Isle of Dogs as I remember it as a kid (this is true - an uncle who had a small business once walked me right round the perimeter road showing me the docks in what is now Canary Wharf - though I don't expect anyone to believe me!)) are to be found by scrolling down the associated links on this page.

    This is all incredibly nostalgic stuff for me. There are other clips of Queenie, the best of which has her self-accompanying singing "Waterloo Sunset" in a version which far outdoes the Kinks original in terms of capturing its raucous pub honky-tonk spirit. The hilarious clip linked below must be from some TV drama, set in a care home, though it doesn't say what:

    https:///www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJ2SdBavLqk
  • Conchis
    Banned
    • Jun 2014
    • 2396

    #2
    Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
    This seemed the most appropriate place to post this. Having just now picked up a copy of the original 1966 movie "Alfie" from my local St Sprees for the unbelievably generous price of £5, I decided on a bit of searching around the net to clear up several details previously unclear in my mind.

    Of course it is well known that Sonny Rollins composed most of the themes that were used hanging around in Ronnie's after-hours, after everyone had gone home to bed, absorbing the vibes from the innumerable gigs which he felt resonating from its walls. The resulting skeletal ideas were more or less improvised into the episodes which atmospherically underline the unfolding plot, using, among others, Stan Tracey, bassist Rick Laird (later to be John McLaughlin's bass guitarist in the Mahavishnu Orchestra, of course), the legendary drummer Phil Seamen, Ronnie Scott himself, and, I think I read somewhere, the Jamaican-born guitarist Ernest Ranglin. Presumably others were in that line-up, though I have not been able to source details - suffice to say that, much as I love the version of these themes which Rollins committe3d to vinyl a year later, on returning to America, I don't think he managed to recapture the extraordinary feel of his playing with the British guys in that impromptu studio session.

    Among a number of things about the latter that I hadn't realised were that, 1) Stan himself provided the plaintive "Little Malcolm Loves his Dad" theme (C, Eb, Bb, Bb, Ab, Eb, G - assuming the key of Ab, which may not actually be the case), but this was not acknowledged in the credits; and 2) that on most reissues of the "original" it is the American release we see, which has Cher singing the Bacharach/David "Alfie" theme, not Cilla Black, who was on the British release, and who of course made the hit with her subsequent recording of the tune.

    Next, people will recall a trad band fronted by a female singer in the pub brawl scene. I had long wondered who the singer was, because it obviously wasn't Ottilie Patterson, Beryl Bryden or Julie London; and it turns out to have been one Queenie Watts, (1923-1980) born under the name of Mary Spenton and a genuine diamond cockney lady who landladied a number of pubs in the East End with hubby "Slim" Watts, about whom there is little information to be found, where she also sang fronting her own 8-piece. There is a moment in the film where she is hit on the side of her face by a flying bit of broken furniture, yet carries on singing, spiritedly ignoring the blow! It further turns out that she featured in a "Portrait of Queenie" a year or two before the making of "Alfie": a film made by the BFI, in which she sang standards and originals accompanied by Stan Tracey with his band. I never knew any of this! An album of these songs was made and released on British Columbia in 1966. Of this I have no details (I wonder if anyone else does), but the opening moments of "Portrait of Queenie" are linked below:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FjDmucYKvU.

    This (and other clips and links to some wonderful reminiscent footage of the Isle of Dogs as I remember it as a kid (this is true - an uncle who had a small business once walked me right round the perimeter road showing me the docks in what is now Canary Wharf - though I don't expect anyone to believe me!)) are to be found by scrolling down the associated links on this page.

    This is all incredibly nostalgic stuff for me. There are other clips of Queenie, the best of which has her self-accompanying singing "Waterloo Sunset" in a version which far outdoes the Kinks original in terms of capturing its raucous pub honky-tonk spirit. The hilarious clip linked below must be from some TV drama, set in a care home, though it doesn't say what:

    https:///www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJ2SdBavLqk
    The TV drama was a play, Waterloo Sunser, by Barrie Keefe.

    Alfie is one of my favourite films. But Cher' (superior) version of the title song was featured on all prints, afaik - though Cilla Black had the British hit single version.

    Comment

    • BLUESNIK'S REVOX
      Full Member
      • Dec 2010
      • 4314

      #3
      Originally posted by Conchis View Post
      The TV drama was a play, Waterloo Sunser, by Barrie Keefe.

      Alfie is one of my favourite films. But Cher' (superior) version of the title song was featured on all prints, afaik - though Cilla Black had the British hit single version.
      The first US recording of "Alfie" was by the great soul singer Jerry Butler, one of the original Impressions with Curtis Mayfield and later "The Ice Man". This was actually cut before Cher but released later. Stevie Wonder also did a remarkable & highly fluent instrumental take on it....

      "In 1968, Stevie Wonder released a harmonica instrumental version. This version made the Hot 100, peaking at #66, and it was also a Top 20 Easy Listening hit. Wonder's single was made for Gordy Records and released pseudonymously as Eivets Rednow - an inversion of "Stevie" and "Wonder"."

      The film has a special place for me (despite its period ugly sexism) as I saw the premier with my first partner. As we walked out she said, "You can forget all that now, you're NOT Alfie!" Which was very very true. As for knowing London docks, my elder brother was in the merchant navy and shipped in and out regularly. We used to meet him there, hopefully loaded down with records from the States, Jamaica, South Africa etc.

      Little known fact: The Workers Revolutionary Party (WRP) was launched in the old fur trading hall just off London docks, Beaver Hall, in 1973. I was there for that too!

      BN.

      Comment

      • Serial_Apologist
        Full Member
        • Dec 2010
        • 37814

        #4
        Funnily enough, I joined the IMG in the summer of '73, and was with them for about 12 years, with a bit of entryism in the Labour Party towards the end. We all thought we were the legitimate inheritors of the Fourth International. I was very upset when I lost my badge, with the reverse hammer and sickle and the number 4 superimposed, which I thought very cool. If I remember rightly, the Workers Revolutionary Party came out of the Socialist Labour League.

        Comment

        • BLUESNIK'S REVOX
          Full Member
          • Dec 2010
          • 4314

          #5
          Yes, 1973 was the launch of the mass party! Somewhat optimistic of Cmrde Healy etc, but they put on some good plays and pageants with Vanessa and Corin! I remember a big Right to Work event where they got Paul Jones to play (alto sax even) plus Vinegar Joe and, wait for it.....Slade! Noddy Holder meets Trotsky...not that he appeared to notice.

          BN.

          Comment

          • ferneyhoughgeliebte
            Gone fishin'
            • Sep 2011
            • 30163

            #6
            Originally posted by BLUESNIK'S REVOX View Post
            Noddy Holder meets Trotsky...not that he appeared to notice.
            "Gudbye to Chains"?
            [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

            Comment

            • Alyn_Shipton
              Full Member
              • Nov 2010
              • 777

              #7
              In the series of vinyl reissues currently being promoted through WHS and elsewhere, I have done new notes to the Rollins/Oliver Nelson "Alfie" including interviews with Stan (done a few years ago) and Sonny. Should be on sale later this year, though maybe only to subscribers now... Detailed comparison cue by cue of the original film score and the album... Series details here https://www.deagostini.com/uk/collections/jazz-vinyl/

              Comment

              • Serial_Apologist
                Full Member
                • Dec 2010
                • 37814

                #8
                Originally posted by Alyn_Shipton View Post
                In the series of vinyl reissues currently being promoted through WHS and elsewhere, I have done new notes to the Rollins/Oliver Nelson "Alfie" including interviews with Stan (done a few years ago) and Sonny. Should be on sale later this year, though maybe only to subscribers now... Detailed comparison cue by cue of the original film score and the album... Series details here https://www.deagostini.com/uk/collections/jazz-vinyl/
                That looks v interesting. Thanks for the advanced, Alyn.

                Comment

                • Lat-Literal
                  Guest
                  • Aug 2015
                  • 6983

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
                  This seemed the most appropriate place to post this. Having just now picked up a copy of the original 1966 movie "Alfie" from my local St Sprees for the unbelievably generous price of £5, I decided on a bit of searching around the net to clear up several details previously unclear in my mind.

                  Of course it is well known that Sonny Rollins composed most of the themes that were used hanging around in Ronnie's after-hours, after everyone had gone home to bed, absorbing the vibes from the innumerable gigs which he felt resonating from its walls. The resulting skeletal ideas were more or less improvised into the episodes which atmospherically underline the unfolding plot, using, among others, Stan Tracey, bassist Rick Laird (later to be John McLaughlin's bass guitarist in the Mahavishnu Orchestra, of course), the legendary drummer Phil Seamen, Ronnie Scott himself, and, I think I read somewhere, the Jamaican-born guitarist Ernest Ranglin. Presumably others were in that line-up, though I have not been able to source details - suffice to say that, much as I love the version of these themes which Rollins committe3d to vinyl a year later, on returning to America, I don't think he managed to recapture the extraordinary feel of his playing with the British guys in that impromptu studio session.

                  Among a number of things about the latter that I hadn't realised were that, 1) Stan himself provided the plaintive "Little Malcolm Loves his Dad" theme (C, Eb, Bb, Bb, Ab, Eb, G - assuming the key of Ab, which may not actually be the case), but this was not acknowledged in the credits; and 2) that on most reissues of the "original" it is the American release we see, which has Cher singing the Bacharach/David "Alfie" theme, not Cilla Black, who was on the British release, and who of course made the hit with her subsequent recording of the tune.

                  Next, people will recall a trad band fronted by a female singer in the pub brawl scene. I had long wondered who the singer was, because it obviously wasn't Ottilie Patterson, Beryl Bryden or Julie London; and it turns out to have been one Queenie Watts, (1923-1980) born under the name of Mary Spenton and a genuine diamond cockney lady who landladied a number of pubs in the East End with hubby "Slim" Watts, about whom there is little information to be found, where she also sang fronting her own 8-piece. There is a moment in the film where she is hit on the side of her face by a flying bit of broken furniture, yet carries on singing, spiritedly ignoring the blow! It further turns out that she featured in a "Portrait of Queenie" a year or two before the making of "Alfie": a film made by the BFI, in which she sang standards and originals accompanied by Stan Tracey with his band. I never knew any of this! An album of these songs was made and released on British Columbia in 1966. Of this I have no details (I wonder if anyone else does), but the opening moments of "Portrait of Queenie" are linked below:

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FjDmucYKvU.

                  This (and other clips and links to some wonderful reminiscent footage of the Isle of Dogs as I remember it as a kid (this is true - an uncle who had a small business once walked me right round the perimeter road showing me the docks in what is now Canary Wharf - though I don't expect anyone to believe me!)) are to be found by scrolling down the associated links on this page.

                  This is all incredibly nostalgic stuff for me. There are other clips of Queenie, the best of which has her self-accompanying singing "Waterloo Sunset" in a version which far outdoes the Kinks original in terms of capturing its raucous pub honky-tonk spirit. The hilarious clip linked below must be from some TV drama, set in a care home, though it doesn't say what:

                  https:///www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJ2SdBavLqk
                  A very interesting post.

                  I feel that there has never been a truly great version of "Alfie" even though it is the sort of song that demands one.

                  However, I haven't heard this version:

                  Ernest Ranglin - http://www.ernestranglin.co.uk/Ernes...g_Ranglin.html

                  I do have records by Ranglin and saw him live in the 2000s. It was very hot and sunny and he was very good indeed.

                  Apparently, his farewell tour in Britain was this year.

                  It turns out that he was involved in earlier film music, notably for Dr No (1962) when appointed by Carlos Malcolm.

                  Comment

                  • Serial_Apologist
                    Full Member
                    • Dec 2010
                    • 37814

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Lat-Literal View Post
                    A very interesting post.

                    I feel that there has never been a truly great version of "Alfie" even though it is the sort of song that demands one.

                    However, I haven't heard this version:

                    Ernest Ranglin - http://www.ernestranglin.co.uk/Ernes...g_Ranglin.html

                    I do have records by Ranglin and saw him live in the 2000s. It was very hot and sunny and he was very good indeed.

                    Apparently, his farewell tour in Britain was this year.

                    It turns out that he was involved in earlier film music, notably for Dr No (1962) when appointed by Carlos Malcolm.
                    Reading back my original post, it suddenly occurs to me to wonder if Queenie Watts and her old man were the inspiration when they chose to name the original incumbents Dennis and Angie Watts for The Albert in EastEnders.

                    On topic I believe it was Ernest Ranglin who did the arrangement of Millie's "My Boy Lollipop" - probably the first Ska record to make a hit beyond the black community here. He has a nephew (I believe) who is or was involved in the UK jazz scene around the Jazz Warriors back in the late 1980s, but I'm b*ggered if I can remember right now who it was.

                    Comment

                    • BLUESNIK'S REVOX
                      Full Member
                      • Dec 2010
                      • 4314

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
                      Reading back my original post, it suddenly occurs to me to wonder if Queenie Watts and her old man were the inspiration when they chose to name the original incumbents Dennis and Angie Watts for The Albert in EastEnders.

                      On topic I believe it was Ernest Ranglin who did the arrangement of Millie's "My Boy Lollipop" - probably the first Ska record to make a hit beyond the black community here. He has a nephew (I believe) who is or was involved in the UK jazz scene around the Jazz Warriors back in the late 1980s, but I'm b*ggered if I can remember right now who it was.
                      You'll kick yourself! Gary Crosby.

                      BN.

                      Comment

                      • Serial_Apologist
                        Full Member
                        • Dec 2010
                        • 37814

                        #12
                        Originally posted by BLUESNIK'S REVOX View Post
                        You'll kick yourself! Gary Crosby.

                        BN.
                        :self-kicking emoticon:

                        Comment

                        • burning dog
                          Full Member
                          • Dec 2010
                          • 1511

                          #13

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