Sir Charles Thompson RIP

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Sir Charles Thompson RIP,

"He passed away 2 days ago in Japan, reported by his daughter. 98 is not bad" - Chuck Nessa, Organissimo.

Not bad indeed. Someone has posted a memory of him leading a rehearsal in London at the piano, reading a coffee table sized book on golf strokes at the same time.

BN.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVHq3RqF5X4

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Thanks for posting that. A lovely clip and a man (a true craftsman) clearly enjoying his work.

BN.

[Alyn_Shipton]

Sad news indeed. "Chase" as his friends called him was a one-off, and I hope there are those (BN, maybe?) who have a C60 of the Jazz Legends programme I did with him (sadly before the days of Jazz Library and podcasts). He demonstrated his golf stance before the interview and regularly announced (holding a golf club) "It don't mean a thing if it ain't...well you know what I mean!" We're playing a track in his memory (from his Vanguard sextet sessions) on July 2 on JRR but more suggestions welcome. jazz.record.requests@bbc.co.uk.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Yes, I do have that Alyn, just about to dig it out. He was one of those artists who I think I know where they are "placed" and then who suddenly surprise. Roland Hanna was another.

BN.

[Ian Thumwood]

If there is one Sir Charles Thompson session that stands out surely it is this one led by Coleman Hawkins in 1945. For me, Thompson epitomises the bridge between swing and bop and the point just before the jack was let out of the box with the first recordings by Gillespie and Parker. If there is a "problem" with jazz, it is that the music developed too quickly and sessions like this quickly got overtaken by events. It is a real shame as the whole of this session was pretty much pitch-perfect and I wish that jazz could have perhaps evolved a little bit more slowly so that it would be possible to appreciate more of this kind of music:-


http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IgkUGZmfm4

I have been looking at some of the lead sheets for the material that Benny Goodman was recording in the early 1940's with Benny Goodman and this only serves to reinforce my perception that the transition from swing to bop is as interesting (if not more so) than a lot of bop itself. If you have a look at the lead sheet for Mel Powell's tune "Mission to Moscow" it is striking just how forward thinking some composers were in the eely forties. For me, the whole be-bop revolution seems more of an evolution that started around 1932 when Bennie Moten's orchestra produced a series of recordings which effectively mark the cut off between vintage and more modern styles of playing. Basie is really instrumental in this and his orchestra paved the way for a more modern style of playing. Players like Clyde Hart , Nat King Cole and Sir Charles Thompson seemed to pick up the baton and then feed in to Be-bop.

I suppose that I cut my teeth listening to this kind of music and was fortunate in some respects that my initial interest was in big band jazz and my enthusiasm led me on to explore both what immediately came before the likes of Goodman as well as discover artists like Coleman Hawkins who were very much engaged with seeing where the music developed. In my opinion, a lot of the jazz from this era never loses it's attraction and records like "Rifftide" retain the excitement where these musicians were self-aware that they were reinvigorating a tradition which was then probably only thirty or so years old.

[Serial_Apologist]

I very much agree with what Ian says here in connection with bebop's forerunners. I would add Errol Garner, Lionel Hampton, saxophonists such as Flip Phillips, Lucky Thompson and Don Byas, chromaticists all, and maybe, just, Art Tatum to his list of transitionalists - though I'll probably change my mind about Tatum tomorrow!

My thoughts are that bebop came about in its rounded out form with the speed it did because players such as these, and of course the main leaders in the revolution, could hear these possibilities and were maybe holding themselves back, waiting on the appropriate rhythm section approach to cohere around its main figures, (Klook, Callender etc), to fire off.

OT maybe, but in another musical field I often feel the same thing about Schoenberg and his school (Berg and Webern) around 1905-9, wishing that Scheonberg in particular had hung around a little longer in the area that was expanding chromatic tonality, creating amazing musical possibilities on that cusp, before moving so fast into new territory it took me years, and possibly lots of others too, to boldly go and really get to grips with. Luckily there were others operating in that same area around the same time - and not just in Vienna. In different places - even here in a more gradualist way! - there was that feeling among some of a need to break out from what were perceived as outworn forms and means of expression.

But getting back to 1940s jazz, I guess I was lucky, in the early 1960s, when people thought in terms of Trad Mainstream and Modern, to have been in a positon to borrow my schoolmates' albums and listen repeatedly enough to them to hear exactly what had happened 20 years before, at a point when the Goodman Trio, however advanced "Avalon" in its various versions seemed, no longer satisfied, preparing me for Parker and Diz (initially, Monk came later); and from reading Fordham's Ronnie Scott biography it does seem that Ronnie and his friends had the same impression of hearing something whose possibilities they had been dimly prepared for when one of them put "Red Cross" on the turntable, back in 1945 or whatever year it was.

Unlike Ian I wouldn't go back as far as the early 1930s for signs yet of that break: several thingsd had to happen, I think: the "liberation" of the pianist's left hand from the burden of the "stride" approach so as to be able to comp in conjunction with the drummer, thereby devolving responsibility for the "basso continuo" to the bass player; the emancipation of the drummer's role beyond one of merely time keeping and stoking up the pressure.

[Ian Thumwood]

S.A

I agree with your list of players who bridged swing and bop. You missed out Charlie Christian though!

In 2016 Be-bop doesn't seem quite the radical break that is would have been in 1945. Be-bop was pretty much stylised and I think that it has run out of steam by the early 1950's. In the end, some of the lesser players seemed like a bit of a parody of Charlie Parker but I would concur that jazz never really recovered from what happened in the early 1940s and I think it really informed a lot of mainstream playing too. It was as if someone had opened a door in to all sorts of possibilities even if the process has been ongoing since the 1930s'. None of this would have happened without the modern, 4/4 swing of bands like Basie's and the way that the Count's band played immediately made all their competitors seem anachronistic my comparison. Try listening to the likes of Benny Goodman, Andy Kirk, Fletcher Henderson or Duke Ellington from this time and contrasting with Basie's records for Decca and not only is the Basie rhythm section better but more modern too. It always amazes me that a composer like Fletcher Henderson could seem "modern" in 1935/6/7 but old-fashioned by 1941! There were swathes of jazz musicians in the 1930s who came on the scene with increasingly more advanced musical ideas , even down to little known trumpeters like Peanuts Holland with Alphonso Trent's band. I think that there was always an enquiring mind about taking the music forward ever since Armstrong (who was light years more advanced than the likes of king Oliver or Freddie Keppard, for example - almost to be playing an entirely different kind of music!) I have never felt that Be-bop emerged out of nowhere but was inevitable given what had happened throughout the mid-thirties through to mid-forties.

For me, the whole era 1917-1945 is endlessly fascinating and probably the period of more rapid and concentrated development in jazz . I totally agree with your comment about the use of the left hand by piano players - this is important too albeit I think jazz piano is something that almost needs to be considered separately. In my opinion, piano players are the real heroes of jazz, having to deal with the rhythmic and harmonic complexities when the gauntlet was thrown down by the likes of Armstrong, Parker or Coltrane. This is why I really appreciate players like Thompson.

[Ian Thumwood]

Ok, cards on the table.

In my opinion, this recording session is the first session with a "modern" modern sense of swigining. There isn't a great deal of difference between the kind of jazz played on the Hawkin's track and the relaxed feel of the recording is a marked contrast to the earlier "chompy" feel of Moten's previous efforts. (This style was in fact popular in New York because the feel was radically difference to other bands in this city. None the less, as much fun as the previous recordings Moten made, they are nothing in contrast to these December 1932 efforts. Listen to the riffing of the sections but perhaps , more importantly, the trumpet solo of Hot Lips Page which has the kind of rhythmic abandon similar to the excellent Hoard McGhee on the Hawkins' track. Walter Page's bass playing is instrumental too but the whole piano / bass / guitar / drums meld together to point the way to the future.

Also worth noting that this tune is actually a contra-fact in "You're driving me crazy."

http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sV_r_GEBf3w

[Ian Thumwood]

Which leads on to records like this which sound far more modern than most other bands in 1939. This is another favourite which would not have sounded dated in 1959.


http://https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3W-qRk70Jm0

I didn't realise that SCT was actually mentored by Bennie Moten as a twelve year old growing up in Kansas City. I was totally unaware of this and the fact that you used to stand in for Basie who was Moten's pianist at the time. Incredible to realise that someone who played with this band was alive until recently.

[Rcartes]

Another player missed from the transitional' players' list is a personal favourite, Wardell Gray. He's usually described as one of the first bebop tenors, but for me he's not really a bop player at all, but a lat(ish) period Lester Young devotee.

I also love this (1940s) period, especially the early efforts by the Dizzy Gillespie big band. I can't find the fabulous 1948 Gene Norman concert on Youtube, but there are a couple of earlier tracks from 1947 that are very cute: He Beeped When He Should Have Bopped, with some nice early Milt Jackson and Oop Bop Sh'Bam. Both show some interesting contributions to the technique of conducting....

And another transitional recording: the Saturday Night Swing Session version of High On An Open Mike: a mixed personel including a definite bopper in Fats Navarro but players influenced more by swing, including Bill Harris, Charlie Ventura and the terrific Allen Eager. Incidentally, this group includes half of my all-time favourite rhythm section in Ralph Burns and Chubby Jackson; missing are Billy Bauer and Davey Tough.

[Ian Thumwood]

RCartes

There is something magical about the jazz that was being produced in the late forties. It is a shame that so many of the recordings were not particularly as well captured aurally as you might have hoped yet the era is chock-a-block with musicians who burned brightly for a limited period before disappearing - it Wardell Gray's case through the actions of the mob.

Gray is a strange musician. I am not a fan of the track "The Chase" which remains his most famous recording. It is probably unique insofar that it is a record with Dexter Gordon on where his playing just leaves me cold. The other association that Gray had was with Benny Goodman's brief experiment with be-bop. I haven't heard these tracks for ages and always felt they were encumbered by Goodman's famous dismissal of be-bop and general lack of interest in anything modern - at least until he started to listen to players like George Benson and Chick Corea. I don't think that Goodman's adventures in this field were quite the disaster that has been made out and the clarinetist had enough technique and musical nous to make the music work.

I echo your comments about the Herman rhythm section. You can single out any number of musicians from the second Herd and find some terrific music. I have never understood quite why Bill Harris's stock has diminished, for example. Dave Tough was always a brilliant drummer and the Goodman small groups are generally enhanced when he swapped him for the enthusiastic but less capable Gene Krupa. As someone who grew up listening to jazz through big bands it quickly became clear to me that they started to loose their identity towards the immediate post-war period. Bands like Andy Kirk's quickly became anonymous and perhaps only Gillespie, Herman and Basie seemed to get the balance right. In Basie's case, even he was reduced to performing with a boppish group around 1948 despite being instrumental in the developments that made bop possible.

Never heard the "open mike" recording before.

[Rcartes]

RCartes

There is something magical about the jazz that was being produced in the late forties. It is a shame that so many of the recordings were not particularly as well captured aurally as you might have hoped yet the era is chock-a-block with musicians who burned brightly for a limited period before disappearing - it Wardell Gray's case through the actions of the mob.

Gray is a strange musician. I am not a fan of the track "The Chase" which remains his most famous recording. It is probably unique insofar that it is a record with Dexter Gordon on where his playing just leaves me cold. The other association that Gray had was with Benny Goodman's brief experiment with be-bop. I haven't heard these tracks for ages and always felt they were encumbered by Goodman's famous dismissal of be-bop and general lack of interest in anything modern - at least until he started to listen to players like George Benson and Chick Corea. I don't think that Goodman's adventures in this field were quite the disaster that has been made out and the clarinetist had enough technique and musical nous to make the music work.

I echo your comments about the Herman rhythm section. You can single out any number of musicians from the second Herd and find some terrific music. I have never understood quite why Bill Harris's stock has diminished, for example. Dave Tough was always a brilliant drummer and the Goodman small groups are generally enhanced when he swapped him for the enthusiastic but less capable Gene Krupa. As someone who grew up listening to jazz through big bands it quickly became clear to me that they started to loose their identity towards the immediate post-war period. Bands like Andy Kirk's quickly became anonymous and perhaps only Gillespie, Herman and Basie seemed to get the balance right. In Basie's case, even he was reduced to performing with a boppish group around 1948 despite being instrumental in the developments that made bop possible.

Never heard the "open mike" recording before.

Ian,

That was certainly a great period, for me as good as the very late 20s/1930s recordings but there's a special place in my heart for those 'transitional' recordings: early Parker with Jay McShann, the Herman First (and Second) Herd, the Coleman Hawkins early/mid 40s groups, the Billy Eckstine Orchestra (with Gene Ammons and Art Blakey1), the Earl Hines Orchestra (rough band and rougher arrangements, but terrific soloists, including Wardell) and loads more.

But as well as low fi quality of the period that you mention, the recording ban of 1942-44 deproved us of some wonderful music.

Where wardell is concerned, I really do love The Chase, the contrast between Dexter's rather brutal style and Wardell's swing is really brought out. But my favourite Wardell solos are on the California 1947 concerts, the Blue Lou with Errol Garner, the Just Jazz concert, the Elks Ballroom session): he was at his peak then and never played better.

[Ian Thumwood]

RCartes

Totally agree with everything you say in the first two paragraphs although I think that Hines' band was exceptional when at its best. I used to have a double LP of their music and was staggered at how their performances vacillated. The band with Parker and Gillespie never recorded but it is worthwhile adding that it also included strings. Far better, in my opinion, is the band from the late 1930's and early 40's which sounded modern and quite aggressive. The track "Yellow fire" always impressed me yet you can pick out any number of instrumentals from that era and find something which is brilliant. I have always loved the drummer Alvin Burroughs and his replacement (forgotten his name) was very good too. Their re-working of "the Earl" by Mel Powell is quite rough, I would concede but the "commercial" material was often hopeless. The band almost seemed to have a dual identity yet the last recordings they produced with musicians like Scoops Carry in the line up seemed to naturally arrive at be-bop.

It is a shame that the music from the latter part of Earl Hine's orchestra's life is not so readily available. Himes was the first pianist to make an impression on my when I was about 14 and there has always been the risk-taking element within his music which always made him sound "modern."

If you look at the big bands who can be seem to have been instrumental in incubating the environment that allowed bop to flourish, it is fascinating to hear how different they were. McShann's bands was steeped in the blues and most of their more jazz orientated material never got recorded and the theft of the band's book meant that a lot of this music must now be lost. Hines seems to have fronted a band quite unlike anyone else's and then there are other bands like Basie's which pointed the way forward without really being aware of just how "modern" they actually were. Herman and Gillespie had the most successful of the more "progressive" bands yet were entirely opposite in their approach even if both sponsored more "progressive" arrangers. Shame to see someone like Ralph Burns not really given the credit he was due.