Jazz is in 12/8 time

[John Wright]

All very interesting Ian but the early jazz was mainly 4/4 fox-trot and 2/4 one-step ragtime because it was intended as dance music, and this continued when tin pan alley tunes were played by jazz bands in the 20s and 30s.

We can write jazz in any time signature but it won't always be danceable, and of course not many new jazz compositions since 1955 are intended to be danceable, though I have tried the cha cha to 'Take Five' :)

[burning dog]

they throw up their arms in horror:

I find that hard to believe. I think they'd say "So What?"

Notation is a way of recording music. Music isn't a way of playing notation.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I find that hard to believe. I think they'd say "So What?"

Notation is a way of recording music. Music isn't a way of playing notation.

All these comments are very interesting, and I've learnt from them.
But "Notation is a way of recording music." This is my point.

On the 4/4 issue, it was refreshing to watch the Dave Brubeck programme yesterday. Jazz in 5/4 :)

[burning dog]

When jazz musicians sketch out music, they know it's going to interpreted as 4/4 with a 12/8 "feel" or whatever you prefer, unless demonstrated or explained differently. I can forsee a problem if the LSO want to play Round Midnight, as writing it out in straight 12/8 wouldn't really produce "jazz" if played by musicans who are unreponsive any better than if it's notated in 4/4.

The comment I made about notation merely being a method of recording I'd clarify by saying the 4/4 convention suffices between one jazz musican and another. The publication of jazz music is after the event, if at all, and is very different from the sketches that are often the basis for jazz pieces.

[John Wright]

Some of you are still ignoring the historical reason for 4/4 in jazz. The very early jazz wasn't written down, it was head music. In their head they might be playing 12/8 or whatever, much as burning dog has just said.

Then some composers realised they could sell this music, WC Handy, King Oliver etc and so their work was published on sheet music. Printing it out as 12/8 would deter purchase, but printed out in 4/4 would look fine for fox-trotting dance bands and the music would sell. And of course in the dance bands there were jazz players and many of the band leaders liked jazz so the 4/4 sheet music got the 12/8 or whatever treatment in performance, though on most dance records the jazz is restricted to a trumpet or clarinet soloist. Fletcher Henderson's first band was a dance band not a jazz band, and only really hotted up when Louis joined.

[Ian Thumwood]

John

Sorry but I have to disagree with some of your comments as they are a bit too generalised. A good proportion of "Early Jazz" was actually written, the best example being Jelly Roll Morton who, I think, actually went as far as to write out the solos too. If you go back into the teens of the last century, I would agree that there were bands such as The Creole Jazz Band (Bill Johnson's unit with Freddie Keppard on cornet) and ODJB who had little or no reading ability and probably improvised their music but within an unvarying routine (to suit a Vaudeville audience in the case of the Creole band.) However, many of the groups of the teens and early twenties would have featured much writing and very little improvisation. Bands like Erskine Tate or Carroll Dickinson may have had the likes of Armstrong in their ranks but the music would largely have been written. This would be even more the case with earlier bands such as those led by Jim Europe or Will Vodery.

The reference to Henderson is interesting as the band was essentially a dance band with "hot" soloists in it's earliest days as pointed out. Writing before the pivotal year of 1926, there are books by the likes of Paul Whiteman amongst others who foresaw jazz's future in writing and not in improvisation. Henderson's earliest efforts are supposed to have fitted this remit.

I think the one area in jazz history that has been totally neglected is the role of music publication. As far as I am aware, there is no comprehensive study that outlines the history of manuscript in the history of the music. Throughout much of the 1920's, music publication generated far more revenue than record sales. If anything, records were used to publicise the work on tin pan alley. The Roseland Ballroom where Fletcher Henderson held court shared a building with a music publisher and the relationship in Henderson's case was very much symbiotic. If anything, the music publishing industry dwarfed the recording industry and publishers were anxious to get all types of bands in the 1920's to record their material. The relationship with publishing and time signatures seems to be a consequence of the popular dance rhythms of the day and publishers had to be mindful that the sheet music they issued could be played by the average musician. Writing the music in a complex 12/8 would have made the music appear to be too difficult and this would have affected sales. It is also easier for writers to use common time when writing and this explains why so much manuscript is often inaccurately been written in 4/4 without reference to the poly-rhythms present in ensemble jazz as you correctly state. I don't think many copyrighters in the 1920's would have been interested in accurately notating the music anyway. There are supposed to be copies of "Whiteman Stomp" written by Henderson which were published in "simplified" arrangements for public consumption and many stock arrangements made available for the semi-pro and amateur bands in the territories around the US reflect as diminuation in the level of technical ability required to pull this music off. Worth reminding ourselves that Henderson's band of this time was technically superior to all it's contemporaries including Ellington. Publication of works by jazz composers is almost as old as jazz inself and the likes of Morton were quick to strike up contracts with publishers such as Melrose and Reb Spikes. I think it was Clarence Williams who perfected the balance of career as jazz performer and publisher at the same time. it is also worth beating in mind that many music publishers also dabbled in issuing records, blissfully unaware of the ultimate consequence that this would have on music publication. As I said, this topic requires much further analysis by the experts and jazz historians.

Worth noting too that nearly everything seems to be available in print nowadays and big band charts seem to find their way into the repertoire of college band pretty soon after appearing on record. No doubt, this reflects the increased technical ability of musicians these days.


cheers

Ian

[John Wright]

Thanks for your response Ian T.

Sorry but I have to disagree with some of your comments as they are a bit too generalised.

That's OK I was only making a general comment or two in response to postings :)

I agree that Jelly Roll Morton and Jim Europe were composers who would write out their music, but they were more ragtime compositions, and JRM may be claiming more compositions than he did :) and yes we agree in pre-1917 New Orleans much jazz was street/dance music not written out at that time.

As regards Henderson and Whiteman, I'm not sure how much Henderson was 'writing ' in the mid 1920s as reed player Don Redman seems to be being credited with most of the arrangements then, Henderson only coming to arranging prominence some years later when he was writing for Benny Goodman and Isham Jones. And as you know Whiteman used very skilled arrangers like Bert Challis etc who wrote Bix and Tram into the arrangerments of popular tunes mostly featuring Bing.

I think the one area in jazz history that has been totally neglected is the role of music publication. As far as I am aware, there is no comprehensive study that outlines the history of manuscript in the history of the music. Throughout much of the 1920's, music publication generated far more revenue than record sales.

I agree with that too. There is an interesting book that I have, need to find, can't remember the author right now, I'll look for it later as it does get close to what you're looking for there.

The relationship with publishing and time signatures seems to be a consequence of the popular dance rhythms of the day and publishers had to be mindful that the sheet music they issued could be played by the average musician. Writing the music in a complex 12/8 would have made the music appear to be too difficult and this would have affected sales.

Which agrees with what I was telling the original poster alpine fellow here.

many music publishers also dabbled in issuing records, blissfully unaware of the ultimate consequence that this would have on music publication. As I said, this topic requires much further analysis by the experts and jazz historians

Yes quantity of records released in the 20s was the peak time of the 20thC I believe, UK and US, I don't have figures to hand but they are somewhere.

There's not much we don't agree about Ian, glad to find someone else here with an early jazz interest. I made the point earlier, about early jazz was mainly 4/4 fox-trot and 2/4 one-step ragtime because it was intended as dance music, because the postings suggested members were unaware of this.

I will look for that book later, covers songwriting/publishing 1880-1950 I think.

[Ian Thumwood]

John

There is plenty about Henderson in this book which I would recommend:-

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Uncrowned-King-Swing-Fletcher-Henderson/dp/0195090225/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1291573956&sr=1-1

This has alot of information about Henderson and the relationship with music publishers as he was originally very much involved with a company called Black Swan. It also deals with Redman's input as well and how his arranging started off from amending stock arrangements before progressing on to fully composed work. Henderson emerges as an enigma and it is fascinating to see just how much the band relied on head arrangements as it pushed on into the later 20's and early 30's as well as the ambiguities as to whether charts were actually written by Fletcher or his brother, Horace. His wife also appeared to have a degree of involvment in the band too. This book has a lot of musical notation / extracts from charts as well as thorough historical research.

[John Wright]

Thanks for that Ian. I haven't found the book I was looking for, remembered now it's a photocopy of the first few chapters I have, someone gave me, but I remembered the author's name, David Ewen. He has written many many books on music but searching Abebooks the title might be All the Years of American Popular Music (1977).

I know something of the Black Swan company, well the 78rpm records that they issued, the first record company owned by black Americans. Fletcher Henderson was the resident accompanist and he's playing piano on the early blues records by likes of Ethel Waters (1921-1923) and he led the band accompaniments on other artistes records. Those 78s are much sought after and were quite commonly found in New York in the 1960s but always well-played and worn, I suppose to the buyers they were just such good records that they played them to death. I don't have any of the Black Swan 78s but I have a few of Fletcher Henderson's band on US Columbia 78s and a few others on US and UK labels, quite a few of his band's records were issued on UK labels 1926-1936.

[burning dog]

Thing is 4/4 jazz is not really in 12/8 anyway.

[John Wright]

Yes, but looking at a score written in 4/4 one can easily play/improvise it in 12/8. The reverse might be more difficult, particularly for a dance band musician.