Strainard Ferguson

[elmo]

We all have musical blind spots and Maynard is mine....

Yes I know he led some good bands in the 50's (in spite of Maynard rather than because of) and his high note work seemed effective in Shorty Rogers "Cool and crazy" band but is there anything else? His solo's are really mediocre - can anyone recommend a "classic" Maynard solo.

The 70's were probably the worst - Maynard's attempt to get "down with the kids" was embarrassingly awful and dreadfully corny witness "Macarthur Park" - I wish he'd left his b***** trumpet out in the rain

Discuss....

elmo

[Serial_Apologist]

We all have musical blind spots and Maynard is mine....

Yes I know he led some good bands in the 50's (in spite of Maynard rather than because of) and his high note work seemed effective in Shorty Rogers "Cool and crazy" band but is there anything else? His solo's are really mediocre - can anyone recommend a "classic" Maynard solo.

The 70's were probably the worst - Maynard's attempt to get "down with the kids" was embarrassingly awful and dreadfully corny witness "Macarthur Park" - I wish he'd left his b***** trumpet out in the rain

Discuss....

elmo

StraYnard could be an equally appropriate spelling - and I quite agree with everything you said there.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

We all have musical blind spots and Maynard is mine....

Yes I know he led some good bands in the 50's (in spite of Maynard rather than because of) and his high note work seemed effective in Shorty Rogers "Cool and crazy" band but is there anything else? His solo's are really mediocre - can anyone recommend a "classic" Maynard solo.

The 70's were probably the worst - Maynard's attempt to get "down with the kids" was embarrassingly awful and dreadfully corny witness "Macarthur Park" - I wish he'd left his b***** trumpet out in the rain

Discuss....

elmo

I think your "in spite of" may be correct at least for me, although he did hire some interesting players in the 50s, including briefly, Mr Shorter. The one track I do really like is the original "Frame for the blues" written by Slide Hampton for the 1958 Message from Newport album. Lovely stuff, sometimes requested on JRR. And despite the brashness (brassness?) of his playing, Maynard seemed to be very well liked by his players.

Now Slide Hampton, there's a guy who NEVER gets much of a mention, a lovely little band at the end of the fifties/early sixties with George Coleman, Hubbard etc.....(I digress).

BN.

[Ian Thumwood]

When I was a teenager getting in to jazz in the early 80's there was a rehearsal big band that used to play in Southsea that I went to see. They had a pretty big following at the time and one of the two leaders was called Porter. Jazzrook may remember this band. There used to be a jazz programme on Radio Solent fronted by Chris Walker and another presenter, the former being more keen on Traditional Jazz whereas the latter was in to the avant garde. This made a strange mix as all the stuff in the middle seemed to get missed out! One week they invited one of the co-leaders as guest in to the studio to talk about the current big band jazz scene. It was memorable as he was fulsome in his praise of Ferguson whilst being very critical of Cat Anderson who was a similar high note specialist with Ellington. At the time it seemed controversial as Ferguson was considered a bit out of date and something you Dad might listen to. He was just about contemporary enough to be relevant but, more importantly, not a band that was stuck in he Miller / Dorsey / James rut. (If you think MF is bad, listen to Harry James!!)

The weird thing about Elmo's comments is that Ferguson had a massive fan base who felt totally different about his band. I grew up listening to big bands and this was an in road to jazz for me. I used to belong to a club that specialized in this music when I was at school, Difficult as it is to imagine now, there were factions of fans for particular big bands so that there were those who loved Glenn Miller whereas others preferred Goodman or Basie. Ellington had another following but one of the most controversial was the "Kenton faction." Kenton was really divisive yet it seemed to appeal more to people who could play instruments and, the closer the model was adhered to, the more they would also like bands like Ferguson's. I have met many people who are real advocates for his orchestra and his encouraging of young musicians had a major influence on how people thought about it.

When I started listing to big band around 1980 there were very few still going. Basie was still around but the likes of Buddy Rich, Maynard Ferguson, Thad Jones , etc were then the last word in the idiom. Someone like Gil Evans was still pretty obscure and had not yet re-established his own orchestra. It was a desperate time and the early 1980's seemed to cap a period when jazz was not popular and decidedly on the wain. I think you need to look at MF in this context as he was trying to make big band music relevant again at a time when most big bands were making a career out of playing Glenn Miller such as Syd Lawrence. When big bands played something adventurous, it might have meant performing something by Charlie Barnet! You need to put the period in context and then you can appreciate what the likes of Woody Herman and Buddy Rich were doing at the time. MF may have been tasteless, but at least he was endeavouring to keep a big band going when, for most people, all they wanted to hear from these kinds of bands were tunes performed 40-45 years previously. This is why venues like the one in Southsea would be packed out with fans looking for more of a then contemporary big band as by playing Buddy Rich and MF charts they at least offered something different from "In the mood."

[Jazzrook]

I think your "in spite of" may be correct at least for me, although he did hire some interesting players in the 50s, including briefly, Mr Shorter. The one track I do really like is the original "Frame for the blues" written by Slide Hampton for the 1958 Message from Newport album. Lovely stuff, sometimes requested on JRR. And despite the brashness (brassness?) of his playing, Maynard seemed to be very well liked by his players.

Now Slide Hampton, there's a guy who NEVER gets much of a mention, a lovely little band at the end of the fifties/early sixties with George Coleman, Hubbard etc.....(I digress).

BN.

Here's the Slide Hampton("if you'll pardon the expression") Octet in Paris in 1962:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcDnE0Z8FMI

JR

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Here's the Slide Hampton("if you'll pardon the expression") Octet in Paris in 1962:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcDnE0Z8FMI

JR

Wacko drummer! Who was called the white Philly Joe by those who played with him.

BN.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Wacko drummer! Who was called the white Philly Joe by those who played with him.

BN.

Slide...

"Yeah, I went with Maynard, which was another pleasant experience. Maynard was a very nice guy, a very fine musician, and really gave all the musicians a chance to develop musical expertise there. He was the exact opposite from Hamp. He and Buddy Johnson were guys that were quite a bit alike. He was really very considerate of the musicians and very respectful of us"

[elmo]

When I was a teenager getting in to jazz in the early 80's there was a rehearsal big band that used to play in Southsea that I went to see. They had a pretty big following at the time and one of the two leaders was called Porter. Jazzrook may remember this band. There used to be a jazz programme on Radio Solent fronted by Chris Walker and another presenter, the former being more keen on Traditional Jazz whereas the latter was in to the avant garde. This made a strange mix as all the stuff in the middle seemed to get missed out! One week they invited one of the co-leaders as guest in to the studio to talk about the current big band jazz scene. It was memorable as he was fulsome in his praise of Ferguson whilst being very critical of Cat Anderson who was a similar high note specialist with Ellington. At the time it seemed controversial as Ferguson was considered a bit out of date and something you Dad might listen to. He was just about contemporary enough to be relevant but, more importantly, not a band that was stuck in he Miller / Dorsey / James rut. (If you think MF is bad, listen to Harry James!!)

The weird thing about Elmo's comments is that Ferguson had a massive fan base who felt totally different about his band. I grew up listening to big bands and this was an in road to jazz for me. I used to belong to a club that specialized in this music when I was at school, Difficult as it is to imagine now, there were factions of fans for particular big bands so that there were those who loved Glenn Miller whereas others preferred Goodman or Basie. Ellington had another following but one of the most controversial was the "Kenton faction." Kenton was really divisive yet it seemed to appeal more to people who could play instruments and, the closer the model was adhered to, the more they would also like bands like Ferguson's. I have met many people who are real advocates for his orchestra and his encouraging of young musicians had a major influence on how people thought about it.

When I started listing to big band around 1980 there were very few still going. Basie was still around but the likes of Buddy Rich, Maynard Ferguson, Thad Jones , etc were then the last word in the idiom. Someone like Gil Evans was still pretty obscure and had not yet re-established his own orchestra. It was a desperate time and the early 1980's seemed to cap a period when jazz was not popular and decidedly on the wain. I think you need to look at MF in this context as he was trying to make big band music relevant again at a time when most big bands were making a career out of playing Glenn Miller such as Syd Lawrence. When big bands played something adventurous, it might have meant performing something by Charlie Barnet! You need to put the period in context and then you can appreciate what the likes of Woody Herman and Buddy Rich were doing at the time. MF may have been tasteless, but at least he was endeavouring to keep a big band going when, for most people, all they wanted to hear from these kinds of bands were tunes performed 40-45 years previously. This is why venues like the one in Southsea would be packed out with fans looking for more of a then contemporary big band as by playing Buddy Rich and MF charts they at least offered something different from "In the mood."

Ian

Interesting angle on the Maynard phenomena - He was obviously a decent guy and well liked by his musicians but that does not necessarily mean his music is good, conversely Miles was a great musician but not by all accounts a very nice person.

I think you could parallel Maynards music in the 70's with bands like Go Go Penguin now - both only have a limited connection to creative Jazz and popular with large numbers of young people, stolid rock rhythm and limited improvisation.

Maynards musical claim to fame is his ability to play stratospheric high notes. technically this may be a great achievement but it does not make it very interesting musically - he is a bit of a one trick pony and I repeat can anyone recommend a really creative trumpet solo by him.

elmo

[Ian Thumwood]

Elmo

I am not sure that the analogy between MF and Go Go Penguin is a good one. I agree that his trumpet playing has no interest but the circumstances for both bands are massively different. Setting aside his horrible trumpet playing, charts like MacArthur Park are still pretty decent and it is one I recall that the BBC Radio Big band always played when I was broadening my taste in jazz as a teenager in the early 1980's. I agree with you that a lot of his material is over-burdened with funk and 1970's tastelessness and did pander to the more commercial aspects of the time. However, I think that you can level this against a load of other musicians in this era too who witnessed jazz clubs closing and no market remaining for straight-ahead jazz. There is some interesting comments on this pressure in the Jimmy Heath autobiography which explains the pressures that the Heath Brothers Band experienced because record companies could no longer shift jazz records. At least there is some jazz in there on the MF records. Despite these atrocities, I believe he made more acceptable jazz records in the 1960's when the pressures were much different. The "Birdland Deamband" isn't supposed to be that bad - I haven't heard their records for ages but it is probably not fair to judge too many jazz artists by their 1970's output!

The comparison with GGP is an interesting one to make. I don't think that the commercial pressures are the same in 2016. Most jazz musicians seem to put out their own record these days and have a free range to release projects which need not have a commercial edge to them. At least MF had a degree of jazz credentials. My issue with groups like GGP is that they seem to distance themselves from the mainstream. There was a curious review of their record on All about jazz this week which made a play that there will have as much appeal from outside jazz as from within and highlighted the fact that they had already been booked to perform as the same Californian Techno Festival that previously cemented Daft Punk's reputation. For me, GGP are a pop act with the line up of an acoustic piano trio. They are as modish as MF was in the 1970's and I would agree with you in this respect, but I am more inclined to feel that they are looking for inspiration outside of jazz and presenting it with the semblance of a jazz group as opposed to a jazz group who have realised that the chips are down in respect of them being relevant to the record buying public and tailoring their output to reflect this market. MF is like someone who had jazz credentials but hedged him bets. You could make the same criticism of Buddy Rich's (far superior) band who also flirted with popular music from the 1970's or even Miles Davis' pretty substandard work from the 1980's which recorded music by Cyndi Lauper and Michael Jackson. The weird thing is that I feel that contemporary pop music isn't quite as good as it has been in the past. Where are today's Stevie Wonder's? For me, I can see that younger people will get more from jazz that takes it's cues from Techno and can appreciate that they will see more in something like GGP. At least MF was trying to latch on to better quality pop music but I think there is a huge risk at endeavouring to borrow too heavily from pop music insofar that the music will quickly date.

Cheers

Ian

[elmo]

Ian

Don't agree with your last sentence that MF was latching on to better quality pop. I have to say that I like a lot of Rock and Pop ( I grew up with it) and that the big band renditions of Pop are the least effective attempts of combining the two. Grafting conventional big band voiceings onto watered down Rock/pop rhythms just sounds awful.
It reminds me of the time when the Beeb were restricted in the amount of Pop records they could play so you had to have dance bands like Bob Miller and the Millermen (groan) playing Rolling Stones songs and completely ruining them. I think an album like Marvin Gaye's " what's going on album" utilises a subtle jazz influence in the writing and arranging which successfully melds the two to create something that was different and original in the 70's - witness "Inner city blues".

Regards
elmo