Monty wins the war - at a Stretch

[Ian Thumwood]

Sounds like some of Lonnie Liston Smith's music OK but 40 years past it's time

The stuff with the choir reminded me a bit of Donald Byrd's "New directions" albeit I think with a stronger element of spirituality as opposed to sounding like the soundtrack to a neglected 1950's western.

Some of the reaction here is a bit similar to the negativity that occurred a few years back when Robert Glasper released the original "Black Radio" record. I never acquired that record although, at the time, I was surprised at just how many teenagers were listening to it. I suppose that the same is true with Washington and I suspect that the target audience is probably a good deal younger than those of us posting on here and, in which case, the 40 year gap referred to by BD will mean that the disc probably sounds very original if you weren't around to hear Liston Smith . (New CD out on Blue Note - Don Was seems to have a penchant to re-signing people who were on the label back in the day. )

[burning dog]

Its true that I often hear that something in the Jazz/Black Popular crossover is "cutting edge" but on hearing there's (IMO) great similarities to music of 25 to 40 years ago.

[Ian Thumwood]

Its true that I often hear that something in the Jazz/Black Popular crossover is "cutting edge" but on hearing there's (IMO) great similarities to music of 25 to 40 years ago.

I think that trying to be "cutting edge" has been to the detriment of jazz, especially in recent years. The problem is that the press is particularly faddish in what it lauds and there has been a recent tendency to praise jazz that leans in a more European influence. Most jazz musicians now considered to be pushing the music forward, according to the press, seem to be white and increasingly European too. Jazz has become more of a global commodity and I suppose this is a reflection of this, However, it does mean that artists like Washington somehow seem more "authentic" and the populist element of the music automatically taps on to the jazz culture of the late 1960's whilst similarly paying respect to more contemporary pop culture. I don't think Kasami Washington is unique and other contemporary groups like Snarky Puppy seem to do this is their own way too.

It is an interesting situation in that there is a lot of hommage to earlier styles of jazz in much of today's jazz and this seems increasingly to be the case. This has always been the case, I think, but the recent attention to jazz groups that only have a tacit relationship with tradition does make the likes of Kamasi Washington stand out. For me, there are plenty of other players who are more interesting yet I would prefer to listen to KW a 1000 more than some of the groups like Go Go Penguin, Tigran, Lars Daneilsson, of any of the other artists I have heard over the last few years whose music seems a bit disrespectful and lacking the ingredients that have tended to make jazz more interesting. The more interesting jazz being performed today for me is that which is unashamedly jazz especially the freer stuff which has tended to detach itself from Improv and re-connect with the kind of music that was being made in the late 1960s / 1970's Loft Scene. This stuff is has far more integrity and I think is starting to get more attention as audiences have seemed to get fed up with the usual "reinvented "piano trios and groups borrowing form European folk / Classical influences. Given the advocates on this board for the likes of Sun Ra and even Archie Shepp, I must admit that I thought the likes of BLuensik and Jazzrook might have been more enthusiastic.

[Quarky]

I heard a track with Patrice Quinn played on Jazz FM. At that level, it seemed an average track that Jazz FM might play.

However there is a melancholy in the strings (is it the blues?) that puts me off enjoying it more in the pop domain.

[PUSB]

I saw the album being sold quite cheaply so decided to give it a try. I think there is a lot to admire but there are also a lot of faults. The first couple of tracks would be really good if they were remixed without the choir. Later there are some good tracks (especially the last one on the album) but some where he perhaps needed a critical listener to advise him to cut down the ambition. Still, it is good that he is ambitious.

[eighthobstruction]

....Bluesy....have you gone into orchestration....http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-35371204

[Serial_Apologist]

I think that trying to be "cutting edge" has been to the detriment of jazz, especially in recent years. The problem is that the press is particularly faddish in what it lauds and there has been a recent tendency to praise jazz that leans in a more European influence. Most jazz musicians now considered to be pushing the music forward, according to the press, seem to be white and increasingly European too. Jazz has become more of a global commodity and I suppose this is a reflection of this, However, it does mean that artists like Washington somehow seem more "authentic" and the populist element of the music automatically taps on to the jazz culture of the late 1960's whilst similarly paying respect to more contemporary pop culture. I don't think Kasami Washington is unique and other contemporary groups like Snarky Puppy seem to do this is their own way too.

It is an interesting situation in that there is a lot of hommage to earlier styles of jazz in much of today's jazz and this seems increasingly to be the case. This has always been the case, I think, but the recent attention to jazz groups that only have a tacit relationship with tradition does make the likes of Kamasi Washington stand out. For me, there are plenty of other players who are more interesting yet I would prefer to listen to KW a 1000 more than some of the groups like Go Go Penguin, Tigran, Lars Daneilsson, of any of the other artists I have heard over the last few years whose music seems a bit disrespectful and lacking the ingredients that have tended to make jazz more interesting. The more interesting jazz being performed today for me is that which is unashamedly jazz especially the freer stuff which has tended to detach itself from Improv and re-connect with the kind of music that was being made in the late 1960s / 1970's Loft Scene. This stuff is has far more integrity and I think is starting to get more attention as audiences have seemed to get fed up with the usual "reinvented "piano trios and groups borrowing form European folk / Classical influences. Given the advocates on this board for the likes of Sun Ra and even Archie Shepp, I must admit that I thought the likes of BLuensik and Jazzrook might have been more enthusiastic.

While "cutting edge" works best, arguably, when it is not selfconsciously intending to be, I have to say I prefer it when jazz musicians, especially young ones, try and take the risks necessary to keep jazz fresh and evolving, even when mistakes can often result. Rather this than stagnation, otherwise it becomes a matter of "correct" and "incorrect" procedures and protocols, like it was here in the early 1960s when the likes of Joe Harriott, Evan Parker and Mike Taylor had to find different ways.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

While "cutting edge" works best, arguably, when it is not selfconsciously intending to be, I have to say I prefer it when jazz musicians, especially young ones, try and take the risks necessary to keep jazz fresh and evolving, even when mistakes can often result. Rather this than stagnation, otherwise it becomes a matter of "correct" and "incorrect" procedures and protocols, like it was here in the early 1960s when the likes of Joe Harriott, Evan Parker and Mike Taylor had to find different ways.

Possibly at a tangent but there's an interesting thread on Organissimo running now about Steve Grossman (he's now 65). Their consensus (and that of a few of his playing contemporaries) is that Grossman was the best of the (white loft) tenor bunch in the late sixties, was vital with Elvin but confused with (electric) Miles and then suffered significant "substance" issues. He was out of action for a good period and now lives in Italy where he appears to have dumped a sack of the late Trane luggage and now plays in a Rollinesque post bop style. (This I find vastly preferably to the Son of Coltrane power tripping.)

The consensus is that he was once in "advance"/the cutting edge of everyone, the Great White Hope, but is now really somewhat sad and passé. That's what happens to cutting edge? I thought it was an interesting example of the roles people are supposed to play in what should be a personal art form.

BN.

[Serial_Apologist]

Possibly at a tangent but there's an interesting thread on Organissimo running now about Steve Grossman (he's now 65). Their consensus (and that of a few of his playing contemporaries) is that Grossman was the best of the (white loft) tenor bunch in the late sixties, was vital with Elvin but confused with (electric) Miles and then suffered significant "substance" issues. He was out of action for a good period and now lives in Italy where he appears to have dumped a sack of the late Trane luggage and now plays in a Rollinesque post bop style. (This I find vastly preferably to the Son of Coltrane power tripping.)

The consensus is that he was once in "advance"/the cutting edge of everyone, the Great White Hope, but is now really somewhat sad and passé. That's what happens to cutting edge? I thought it was an interesting example of the roles people are supposed to play in what should be a personal art form.

BN.

I think if it really is personal, not just minicry, deliberate or otherwise, it is going to be cutting edge. This is probably going to be controversial but I would cite Tony Coe expanding on Gonsalves's already cutting-edge approach within the ever-advancing Ellington band, and substantiate that by reiterating my argument that the main lines of jazz advance have come when the personal approach, whether it be Charlie Parker or Ornette Coleman, impacts upon its musical surrounds in such a way as to qualitatively change the practice. Ian knows I disagree with him about this. For me, whether or not this has subsequent impact really depends on the receptivity of the times. When civilisation moves foward, jazz helps in re-thinking hierarchies in music and is in turn encouraged to push at the boundaries - which for me is why at the cutting edge it is now the most progressive form in western music, along with free improv, at the cutting edge, if that doesn't sound tautological!

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

....Bluesy....have you gone into orchestration....http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-35371204

A Corbyn political comedy by the "political editor" (sic) of GQ. That's the work experience guy with the box of tissues right?

BN.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

While "cutting edge" works best, arguably, when it is not selfconsciously intending to be, I have to say I prefer it when jazz musicians, especially young ones, try and take the risks necessary to keep jazz fresh and evolving, even when mistakes can often result. Rather this than stagnation, otherwise it becomes a matter of "correct" and "incorrect" procedures and protocols, like it was here in the early 1960s when the likes of Joe Harriott, Evan Parker and Mike Taylor had to find different ways.

- all the best Artworks are "cutting edge": it's just that some are so sharp, people don't notice they're bleeding!

[eighthobstruction]

A Corbyn political comedy by the "political editor" (sic) of GQ. That's the work experience guy with the box of tissues right?

BN.

....I'm sure we all have our own version of such a showstopper in our heads....lets hope these toffs don't ruin it for us....by creating a mnemonic so that we can remember the names of the shadow cabinet....

[elmo]

I think if it really is personal, not just minicry, deliberate or otherwise, it is going to be cutting edge. This is probably going to be controversial but I would cite Tony Coe expanding on Gonsalves's already cutting-edge approach within the ever-advancing Ellington band, and substantiate that by reiterating my argument that the main lines of jazz advance have come when the personal approach, whether it be Charlie Parker or Ornette Coleman, impacts upon its musical surrounds in such a way as to qualitatively change the practice. Ian knows I disagree with him about this. For me, whether or not this has subsequent impact really depends on the receptivity of the times. When civilisation moves foward, jazz helps in re-thinking hierarchies in music and is in turn encouraged to push at the boundaries - which for me is why at the cutting edge it is now the most progressive form in western music, along with free improv, at the cutting edge, if that doesn't sound tautological!

I agree I think continuing to develop the music so that it has some degree of individual creativity as opposed to turning out a polished safe performance is a kind of cutting edge in itself. I think your Tony Coe example is relevant and would cite the pianist Hal Galper who has developed from a very good post bopper into a very interesting take on free bop. Its a shame he never figures in any conversations about interesting pianists.

Hal's take on Trane's "Little Sonny"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwbsqTVxIvY&feature=player_embedded

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

I agree I think continuing to develop the music so that it has some degree of individual creativity as opposed to turning out a polished safe performance is a kind of cutting edge in itself. I think your Tony Coe example is relevant and would cite the pianist Hal Galper who has developed from a very good post bopper into a very interesting take on free bop. Its a shame he never figures in any conversations about interesting pianists.

Hal's take on Trane's "Little Sonny"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nwbs...layer_embedded

Agree with SA and yourself. Steve Kuhn is another who has continued to grow and never gets a mention in these parts.

But there is also "craft" and that can too often seem a dirty word. I can think of a host of musicians who were never "cutting edge" but who quietly developed a personal style and were immensely proud of their craft, the kind of Art Farmer or Barry Harris etc etc.

Music, art , should never be about marks out of ten from the points book. I've grown to loath the "five star" review syndrome that passes for "jazz criticism". Its about humanity or its nothing. Gene Ammons playing a ballad has very REAL "value".

BN.

[Ian Thumwood]

I saw Steve Grossman several years ago with a French pick up trio and enjoyed the gig. The comments about Grossman, Galper, etc are spot on and there is a massive tendency to overlook these kind of players - mainly because they are not now so young.

Increasingly I find the whole concept of being "cutting edge" really boring. A lot of the jazz that get christened this by the press is no such thing and the phrase seems increasingly to be levelled as the kind of stuff that seems more and more divorced from what jazz has traditional sounded like, whether we are talking about Freddie Keppard or Joe Lovano. There is a tendency to over-praise the mediocre stuff whereas I have heard players like Stanley Cowell perform with Nasheet Waits and Tarus Mateen pus in performances that are so good as to be embarrassingly superior to some of the shit that gets lauded in "Jazzwise" or "Jazz line up" for example. It must be frustrating for musicians who have put 30-40 year's effort in to honing their craft to see something which isn't channelled through the tradition praised to the hilt. A lot of mediocre stuff seems to be marketed in an almost aggressive fashion simply because the musicians are young and new and maybe informed by rock / folk / classical / electronica.

For me, I think the nub of the issue is that jazz needs to be authentic. I concur to a degree with SA that jazz needs to evolve and progress but this doesn't mean that the baby should be thrown out with the bath water. I like the fact that Washington's music makes reference to this past and believe that this give his music more legs than someone who is ashamed by the heritage. Equally, I think there are elements in the KW gig that make it sound contemporary. It is probably fair to say that his work lacks the focus of someone who has worked as a soloist for 40years and whose work is obviously going to be more experienced. This week I have been listening to Scofield and Lovano and whilst the disc is a bit more restrained than previous records by the pairing, the quality of the band is exceptional. The record has class oozing out of it. SA might consider this as mainstream but what they conjure up is as compelling for me as the music of Frank Rosaly, Steve Lehman, etc who represent a newer generation. My point would be that jazz is a broad church where the many styles offer potential to be creative. However, I sometimes feel that labels like ACT or ECM encourage an even broader approach with the ultimate dilution of "authenticity" which , to my ears, often denigrates the final result.