What Jazz are you listening to now?

[elmo]

Two versions of Trane's beautiful composition 'Central Park West'

Joe Lovano with Michael Petrucciani, Dave Holland and the great Ed Blackwell

https://youtu.be/BCodWzGXVXk

J R Monterose and Tommy Flanagan

https://youtu.be/sIlJ9Nw5-5E

both versions do the composition proud

elmo

[Ian Thumwood]

Two versions of Trane's beautiful composition 'Central Park West'

Joe Lovano with Michael Petrucciani, Dave Holland and the great Ed Blackwell

https://youtu.be/BCodWzGXVXk

J R Monterose and Tommy Flanagan

https://youtu.be/sIlJ9Nw5-5E

both versions do the composition proud

elmo

I always think of this tune as a slowed own cousin of "Giant Steps." I grew up being familiar with this arrangement written by trombonist John Fedchock for Woody Herman's band in the 1980s which is something special. It sounds like a modern version of something Claude Thornhill's band might have played...

[Ian Thumwood]

I have been fascinated by the Youtube videos posted by Hahre Sol. They are a bit hit and miss but the analysis of Bebop is quite interesting insofar that it tackles the music from the perspective of someone coming from Classical music who has not experience of the music. There are some quite interesting conclusions in the videos which deal with all sorts of music although they largely deal with the traits which distinguish certain composers. The assessment of pop music is quite salutory and a marked difference from other, similar Youtubers who present little films to suggest, say, that The Beatles were aware of modern harmony. On one of the Hahre Sol videos, there is a deconstruction of an Adele song which I found to be intriguing. (A singer I have heard about but never listened to.) Quite staggering that she is effectively working at a level even more basic and banal than the The Beatles. Without explicitly stating this, she splits real music from stuff which does not stand up to scrutiny . This bebop video includes a visit to one of Barry Harris' legendary workshops.

[Stanfordian]

‘Oscar Peterson Trio + One’ – Oscar Peterson & Clark Terry
with Ray Brown & Ed Thigpen
Mercury (1964) (reissued on Verve & Phillips - UK)

[Joseph K]

I always think of this tune as a slowed own cousin of "Giant Steps."

IIRC like 'Giant Steps' it starts with a B major chord (at least on Coltrane's recording) but it's based on key changes a minor third apart as opposed to the major thirds of 'Giant Steps'.

[Serial_Apologist]

IIRC like 'Giant Steps' it starts with a B major chord (at least on Coltrane's recording) but it's based on key changes a minor third apart as opposed to the major thirds of 'Giant Steps'.

Yep! Could even be taken as an example of Coltrane adopting Bartok's idea of intervallic augmentation, as applied for example in his Music for Strings, Harp, Celesta and Percussion, in which the chromatic subject of the first movement's slow fugue has its intervals augmented by a semitone to provide the folk-like melody heading the finale. Pure speculation on my part, mind!

[Ian Thumwood]

Yep! Could even be taken as an example of Coltrane adopting Bartok's idea of intervallic augmentation, as applied for example in his Music for Strings, Harp, Celesta and Percussion, in which the chromatic subject of the first movement's slow fugue has its intervals augmented by a semitone to provide the folk-like melody heading the finale. Pure speculation on my part, mind!

This is the kind of comment which I find amusing as the changes on both "Giant Steps" and "Central Park West" all hinge on the basic minor- dominant -major pattern which is as about as bread and butter as you can get with harmony. You could make an equally convincing argument for Coltrane to be influenced by Scarlatti! This stuff is probably only revelatory if you are Adele! The fascinating thing about "Giant Steps" is that it is like an endless chain and that you can effectively crunch in all sorts of substitutions on the same pattern and it works. For my money, you can do so much more with it's structure than "CPW" which is more resolutely in B major. (Wierdly, the Realbook has no key signature for GS but it should be in E flat.) The challenge for me in playing "Giant Steps" is to see whether it is possible to somehow modulate through all 12 keys when soloing over it's structure for a number of choruses.

"Giant Steps" has a reputation for being able to trip people up and I think it is because of the endless possibilities of using II-V-I progressions plus the fact that the changes themselves have their own motion / swing which encourages you to accelerate. I think of both compositions as exercises more than compositions. If you like "Giant Steps" is the culmination of Be-bop and more thought-provoking composers like Herbie Nichols, Wayne Shorter were lookiing at ways to move away from II_V-I. I think of "Giant Steps" as being a composition that marked the point after which Coltrane had to move towards a modal approach. It is as much a puzzle as a tune, hence it's endless fascination.

I really like the idea of jazz being a problem solving exercise. One album I would really recommend to Joseph would be the Samo Salamon / Tony Malaby / Roberto Dani trio record""Travelling, moving, breathing. " Upon the initial listen, I was a little under-whelmed but the more I have listened to this disc, the more impressed I have been. The trio operates at the more outside spectrum of Paul Motian's similar trio but they are really listening to each other and responding even in the most "free" components. Malaby is a revelation to me but I just think this record underscores what great jazz sounds like these days. They take little motifs and expand on them. On initial listen I suppose they may come across as too detatched yet the opposite is , in fact, the reality. This is one of the most fascinating jazz albums I have head for ages. You have to listen to this several times to appreciate. It is another example where I feel you have musicians treating jazz as some kind of puzzle to be poured over. I think this record is absolutely brilliant.

[Serial_Apologist]

The challenge for me in playing "Giant Steps" is to see whether it is possible to somehow modulate through all 12 keys when soloing over it's structure for a number of choruses.

I am grateful to Giant Steps for goading me into trying my slim improvising "skills" out on it, after Alan Skidmore told an audience I was in that when he first heard the tune it almost made him give up and take his sax back to the music shop! A bit of disingenuousness there, one suspected! But as Joseph K points out it starts in B maj; it then proceeds through several modulations using sharpened keys, and I had always been terrified of sharpened keys: this piece helped me overcome that particular phobia and ever since I have been much more comfortable, not only with them but with moving through unfamiliar modulations in general

"Giant Steps" has a reputation for being able to trip people up and I think it is because of the endless possibilities of using II-V-I progressions plus the fact that the changes themselves have their own motion / swing which encourages you to accelerate. I think of both compositions as exercises more than compositions. If you like "Giant Steps" is the culmination of Be-bop and more thought-provoking composers like Herbie Nichols, Wayne Shorter were lookiing at ways to move away from II_V-I. I think of "Giant Steps" as being a composition that marked the point after which Coltrane had to move towards a modal approach. It is as much a puzzle as a tune, hence it's endless fascination.

Yes that's how I've come to locate it in the bop > modal transition stage.

I really like the idea of jazz being a problem solving exercise. One album I would really recommend to Joseph would be the Samo Salamon / Tony Malaby / Roberto Dani trio record""Travelling, moving, breathing. " Upon the initial listen, I was a little under-whelmed but the more I have listened to this disc, the more impressed I have been. The trio operates at the more outside spectrum of Paul Motian's similar trio but they are really listening to each other and responding even in the most "free" components. Malaby is a revelation to me but I just think this record underscores what great jazz sounds like these days. They take little motifs and expand on them. On initial listen I suppose they may come across as too detatched yet the opposite is , in fact, the reality. This is one of the most fascinating jazz albums I have head for ages. You have to listen to this several times to appreciate. It is another example where I feel you have musicians treating jazz as some kind of puzzle to be poured over. I think this record is absolutely brilliant.

Even in??? I've sometimes thought when listening to jazz musicians complaining that playing "free" discourages musicians from listening to one another that this is an attitude born of not sharing idiomatic references of sufficient breadth to be able to read across and beyond conventions - the need to "think outside (and beyond) "the box" is crucial in this connection in order to be open to other ways of "doing it" which dependence on conventions can stand in the way of.

[Jazzrook]

J.R. Monterose with Rein de Graaff(piano); Henk Haverhoek(bass) & Pierre Courbois(drums) playing 'Body and Soul' in the Netherlands, 1970:

https://www.YouTube.com/watch?v=Cn1OPxx8Nds

JR

[Stanfordian]

‘Unity’ – Larry Young
with Woody Shaw, Joe Henderson & Elvin Jones
Blue Note (1965)

[Joseph K]

‘Unity’ – Larry Young
with Woody Shaw, Joe Henderson & Elvin Jones
Blue Note (1965)

[elmo]

I usually post on subjects relating to what I suppose we would call classic jazz of all the eras but I am interested in all sorts of music. I do listen regularly to 'Freeness hosted by Corey Mwamba and find much of the music he plays fascinating but somewhat bewildering. I was always open to the Avante Garde and quickly took to Ayler when I first heard those ESP's in the mid 60's but some of the stuff on last night's programme lost me. I'd like to find a way into it because I think I am missing out, the musicians I'm sure are sincere but a trio (i think) last created a wall of noise which rock fans refer to as "skronk" that hurt my ears. If you heard the prog last night and liked it please give me a clue!

elmo

[Serial_Apologist]

I usually post on subjects relating to what I suppose we would call classic jazz of all the eras but I am interested in all sorts of music. I do listen regularly to 'Freeness hosted by Corey Mwamba and find much of the music he plays fascinating but somewhat bewildering. I was always open to the Avante Garde and quickly took to Ayler when I first heard those ESP's in the mid 60's but some of the stuff on last night's programme lost me. I'd like to find a way into it because I think I am missing out, the musicians I'm sure are sincere but a trio (i think) last created a wall of noise which rock fans refer to as "skronk" that hurt my ears. If you heard the prog last night and liked it please give me a clue!

elmo

The problem I think is lack of context, as MrGG always used to remind us. We get subjective afterthoughts on tracks played from Corey on groups and individuals we are told little or nothing about, often not even their nationality - they all seem to be picked out of some hat - which in all, to be frank, doesn't add much to appreciating the whys and wherefores of the music played, or in general. Free improv has been around at least half a century - not all that much longer than Hip-hop, about which there are and have over the years been numerous radio and TV programmes, explaining the genre's origins, ideologies, etiology and relationship to experimental Rock music, Rap, Reggae, Dub, or Electronica, not forgetting multifarious House genres. Surely there are experts aplenty around who have managed to keep up? It needs someone with a broad but informed overview. Musicians aren't always or necessarily the best advocates for this, in my opinion, important area of music making. My guessing is that today's recruiters at the Beeb are themselves no longer sufficiently specialised or qualified to ascertain suitable presenters; someone probably just said, "Psst, there's this guy Corey Mwamba who we're told from within their circles is an improvising musician; from the look of his name he'd probably be the right person".

[Jazzrook]

Perhaps Corey Mwamba's new series on the vibraphone(Radio 3, Sun, 11pm) will be more focused and illuminating than his poorly presented and often bewildering 'Freeness'?

JR

[Serial_Apologist]

Perhaps Corey Mwamba's new series on the vibraphone(Radio 3, Sun, 11pm) will be more focused and illuminating than his poorly presented and often bewildering 'Freeness'?

JR

Yes indeed - thanks too for the reminder of this programme, JR.