What Jazz are you listening to now?

[Stanfordian]

'Destination... Out!' – Jackie McLean
with Grachan Moncur II, Bobby Hutcherson, Larry Ridley & Roy Haynes
Blue Note (1963)

[Joseph K]

'Destination... Out!' – Jackie McLean
with Grachan Moncur II, Bobby Hutcherson, Larry Ridley & Roy Haynes
Blue Note (1963)

A very fine album... Roy Haynes just turned 96.

[Joseph K]

... on which note, here's Haynes with Trane on a mind-blowing Impressions:

[Serial_Apologist]

The whole album is awesome, but particularly here, I think:

Thanks for this, Joseph K.

It's not hard to appreciate what musicians admire, yet I must admit I tend to limit listening to Allan Holdsworth too frequently, as one can too easily acclimatize to his technique, which is never a device merely for its own sake, and then find almost anything played thereafter seem disappointing by comparison.

[Joseph K]

Thanks for this, Joseph K.

It's not hard to appreciate what musicians admire, yet I must admit I tend to limit listening to Allan Holdsworth too frequently, as one can too easily acclimatize to his technique, which is never a device merely for its own sake, and then find almost anything played thereafter seem disappointing by comparison.

I can see your point, yet I find myself listening to Holdsworth on a fairly regular basis since his is a concept that contains too much beauty not to be experienced and re-experienced... but as you imply, it is easy to forget (because Holdsworth makes it appear easy!) that most musicians/guitarists don't have access to such a unique and colourful and virtuosic style.

[Stanfordian]

A very fine album... Roy Haynes just turned 96.

A good age! So many musicians of his generation died far too early.

[Ian Thumwood]

Thanks for this, Joseph K.

It's not hard to appreciate what musicians admire, yet I must admit I tend to limit listening to Allan Holdsworth too frequently, as one can too easily acclimatize to his technique, which is never a device merely for its own sake, and then find almost anything played thereafter seem disappointing by comparison.

SA / Joseph

Listening to "Texas" was informative as it is clear that Allan Holdsworth was playing at an extremely high level technically but, for me at least, I think it underscores the issues with Fusion which I find problematic. It is sometimes far easier to accommodate a "pop" or "rock" artist more if they have are clearly coming out of jazz influence than it is to appreciate the whole concept of guitar-led "jazz rock." For me, pop music always improves immeasurably whenever there is an underlying jazz influence simply because it will be more "musical" when it comes to using harmony, rhythm and timbre to enhance the music. These days, I feel that this is especially the case given that so much pop is such utter crud.

Listening to the track Joseph posted you can tell Holdsworth came out of a jazz tradition by his phrasing and sense of harmony. This is sophisticated music and well played. However, it is difficult for me to put my finger on it as to what exactly it is about it that I dislike. A lot of my difficulty comes from overcoming my aversion of the processed sound of his guitar and the fact that this stuff dates extremely quickly. There are plenty of guitarists whose playing I love who have come out of a "rock" background yet they have managed to do this through a jazz sensibility. The better ones, like the late John Abercrombie, quickly threw off the influence of the likes of Hendrix and emerged better for it. For me, players like Holdsworth and John McLaughlin have been less willing to slough off the rock elements in their playing and the virtuoso nature of their soloing personally leaves me cold in a fashion that is comparable to someone like Oscar Peterson.

The other real difficulty for me with these kind of line ups is the taught quality of the bassist. I really hate this style of playing where the bass and drums combine like an automaton where the music is so tight that it seems suffocating. The band is incredibly cohesive and it is not difficult to appreciate why someone like Holdsworth had an almost hagiographical reputation. After listening to this kind of music it is really necessary for me to listen to something far more "organic" and I want to hear music where there is some air between what the bass and drummer are playing. (Something like William Parker and Hamid Drake?)

There are some "schools" in jazz where the criteria with which the music is judged by it's adherents feels different from the more mainstream forms of jazz. The two obvious examples of this are the Django / Gypsy school of jazz where there is very much a set repertoire and the music centres around expression on the acoustic guitar which has it;s antecedents in folk music and, I suspect, predates jazz. The other example is organ-led Soul Jazz where a degree of funkiness is demanded and the music is very much about the groove as opposed to innovating. For me, jazz - rock has the same kind of criteria. I would suspect that most of the people coming to Allan Holdsworth's music will be coming to the music via heavy rock and musicians such as Steve Vai or Joe Satriani. Having seen the latter in concert and walked out within 30 minutes as it was so mind numbingly dull, I would not mind betting that there is a massive overlap between fans of this kind of music and Holdsworth. It seems largely to celebrate muscle building technique and an ability to conjure up the seemingly impossible rather like the way Romantic Classic music in the late 1800s produced composers like Charles-Valetin Alkan did for the piano. I would not be so unwise to slate Holdsworth off yet I really struggle to hear much relevance in his playing towards jazz. I would suggest that most fans coming from a point of view of listening to anything recorded between King Oliver and AEoC are not going to dig the guitarist's work.

[Joseph K]

I would suspect that most of the people coming to Allan Holdsworth's music will be coming to the music via heavy rock and musicians such as Steve Vai or Joe Satriani. Having seen the latter in concert and walked out within 30 minutes as it was so mind numbingly dull, I would not mind betting that there is a massive overlap between fans of this kind of music and Holdsworth. It seems largely to celebrate muscle building technique and an ability to conjure up the seemingly impossible rather like the way Romantic Classic music in the late 1800s produced composers like Charles-Valetin Alkan did for the piano. I would not be so unwise to slate Holdsworth off yet I really struggle to hear much relevance in his playing towards jazz. I would suggest that most fans coming from a point of view of listening to anything recorded between King Oliver and AEoC are not going to dig the guitarist's work.

Ian,

Thanks for taking the time to write about Holdsworth, though you seem to have slipped into snobby and unfounded comments about his purported fan base. When you mentioned Alkan and Romantic pianist-composers the first thing I thought of was the famous piano exercises book by Hanon, which dates from that era, and which Coltrane used for his own muscle-building technique on the saxophone. As for Vai and Satriani, I struggle to see their relevance to Holdsworth as they are primarily rock guitarists not interested much if at all in improvisation and everything else involved the kind of jazz Holdsworth played - by making the comparison it only serves to draw attention to the facile nature of your listening, since the only similarities I think of are that all three guitarists generally use distortion and both Holdsworth and Satriani and to a lesser extent Vai have a predilection for legato phrasing. In any case, Holdsworth's technique was quite unique in that he eschewed pull-offs, playing mostly with hammer-ons.

Holdsworth is generally regarded highly in the jazz-guitar community; I know a few people e.g. Christian Miller who are very knowledgeable about early jazz and swing who love Holdsworth - probably what you're doing is projecting your own blind-spot (or deaf-spot, should I say) onto others.

[Ian Thumwood]

Joseph

I suppose I am the product of the era in which I grew up listening to jazz as Fusion which was at it's zenith when I first started to listen but had become discredited by the time I started to get seriously into jazz. There are some musicians who you might consider "fusion" who I like. I would also have to say that I am sure that we share enthusiasm for more musicians than where we disagree. As a rule, I am pretty open minded about a lot of jazz and there are only a few "dead spots" where I have to say it is not for me. There are people like Braxton or Kenton who I do not get at all yet I acknowledge that there are others who find their differing approaches to be rewarding. That is fair enough.

It is difficult for me to express what it is about his music that I dislike as I can recognise the musicianship of Allan Holdsworth's trio. The main issue is with the "feel" of their playing. I really dislike that intense, tight style of bass playing which never sits back on the beat. There used to be a local bass guitarist about 30 years ago who was exceptionally gifted but did this all the time and I was never aware of how awkward it is playing with someone who has this kind of "feel" until I rehearsed with him a few times. It was like playing against a metronome which was not only very difficult but also did not feel natural to me. I think the best jazz always sits back a little on the beat.

I did not think the comparison with Vai or Satriani was unfair. Both are improvisors and, in the case of the latter, he did study with Lennie Tristano. Having seen Satriani perform live, I have to admit that it did nothing for me yet I can understand that there will always be a cadre of guitarists who will be playing their instruments in their bedrooms and will be getting off on the fact that both Vai and Satriani can play at 1000 mph. In my opinion, the results sound pretty meaningless and have none of the properties that make me want to explore their work any further. I don't doubt that there are more "mainstream" jazz fans who admired Holdsworth too yet I would not be surprised to find that he also attracted fans outside of jazz in a way that a musician such as John Abercrombie probably wouldn't. A good proportion of the people listening to Holdsworth will be guitarists like yourself.

It is very much a case of horses for courses. There are elements of Holdsworth's playing that I can admire yet, overall, the music seems a bit intense and neurotic to my ears. I could not get through a whole album where a band is playing with that kind of feel, even if I set aside my prejudice against his use of the dated guitar synth. So much of the concept of this music seems "wrong" to my ears or at least contrary to the "feel" of the wide range of jazz I can accommodate. I am always going to plump for acoustic jazz over anything that is electric for no other reason that acoustic instruments seem more natural and seem more able to "breath." My immediate reaction to hearing music like this is to seek out something with a more relaxed and less intense approach where you can appreciate the musicians listening and responding to their colleagues. All in all, I suppose it is the machine like nature of the music that I really dislike.

[Joseph K]

I suppose I am the product of the era in which I grew up listening to jazz as Fusion which was at it's zenith when I first started to listen but had become discredited by the time I started to get seriously into jazz.

Uh well, you suppose incorrectly. It's a lousy rhetorical strategy of yours, Ian, to use the passive like this... if you had a written 'at a certain stage, I started to dislike fusion' I could think 'well, fair enough' but instead the implication is that this discrediting had taken place ('had become') by some force exterior to yourself... altogether pretty risible but I suspect you're just trying to be provocative...

I am always going to plump for acoustic jazz over anything that is electric for no other reason that acoustic instruments seem more natural and seem more able to "breath." .

Chuck out your Charlie Christian and Wes records - they're all electric!

[Stanfordian]

‘Silver's Serenade’– Horace Silver
with Blue Mitchell, Junior Cook, Gene Taylor & Roy Brooks
Blue Note (1963)

[Joseph K]

John Coltrane - First Meditations

A stunningly beautiful, sublime album.

[Stanfordian]

‘Wahoo!’ - Duke Pearson
with Donald Byrd, Joe Henderson, Bob Cranshaw & Mickey Roker
Blue Note (1964)

[Joseph K]

Miles Davis - In a Silent Way

[Jazzrook]

'II B.S.' from the 1963 album 'Mingus X 5':

https://www.YouTube.com/watch?v=w0E1XTqUlCc

JR