What Jazz are you listening to now?

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  • Serial_Apologist
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 37559

    Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post
    I am almost inclined to say that this is the wrong question. The second volume of the MD quintet from 1967 is exceptional and maybe gives as good an impression of what the band could achieve as anything recorded in the studio. I would be inclined to say that they could be better. The reason we are able to make these judgements is because someone had the good sense to record the material in the first place. Miles remains one of the most significant figures in jazz 30 years after his death and is amongst the Pantheon of players like Armstrong, Parker, Ellington, Coltrane, Ornette ,Rollins, etc who we should not surprised work at this level of creativity.

    I think that the quality of music has not necessarily diminished since 1970 but that the drive has been towards increasingly better produced studio records. I am increasingly coming around to the idea that there is so much live jazz of various vintages being released these days that it will have a bearing on how the musical worth of many jazz musicians is assessed. No doubt this will apply to the current generation of players. A good example of this is the recently released Sonny Rollins record recorded in Holland which is garnering some very favourable assessments. We have already seen this before with the likes of Resonance issuing recordings of gigs by the likes of Bill Evans, Stan Getz, Miles and Cannonball as well the likes of Dennis Coffey who is largely unknown. There are also swathes of Coltrane concerts materialising too albeit he is a musician I feel has already been well documented insofar that we already knew he was a force of nature. In each case, the live recordings offer something new and demonstrate what can be achieved "in the moment."

    I love Miles' work which ranks amongst the finest in jazz and we are fortunate to have live recordings which catch him throughout his prime. It does help that his music was pretty cranked up by this point in time where innovation was pretty wide-spread and the jazz started to follow different directions. This was an incredible period in the development of jazz. Has jazz deteriorated since this point as Joe is suggesting? To be honest, I feel that groups like the Wayne Shorter quartet have matched these levels since the late 1990s and there is a plenty to document just how good this band was both on CD and radio broadcasts. Much of their recorded output has been of live performances. I can also think of plenty other artists who have reached similar levels of creativity in a live environment and who have managed to get the music out to the public whether it is piano trios led by Chick Corea or Keith Jarrett or post-Miles quintets such as the exceptional one led by Dave Douglas which made an exceptional double album at the Jazz Standard in the mid 2000's. Live performances can be a hit and miss affair and sometimes it is nicer to have a fully-realised studio performance as opposed to a one off, live gig which doesn't quite happen or is uneven. That said, off the top of my head I would count live albums such as Betty Carter's "Feed the fire", any number of KJ's trios or even the exceptional "Personal Mountains" album with Jan Garbarek, Chick Corea's trio in Europe, last year's Paul Bley trio album, the aforementioned Dave Douglas double album as amongst the finest in my collection - all recorded after the MD concert in question. The recent Steve Coleman double album that was recorded live goes toe-to-toe with the later 1960s / early 70's Miles and really underscores that funk /rock elements can be blended in to jazz without any incongruity as well as Coleman's wider ambition with his music. It is arguably more interesting because of the concept he employs as the basis of the improvisations. (It is shocking just how overlooked Steve Coleman is these days! ) Gerald Clayton's recent VV album is also demonstrative of the sparks that can fly in a live session even in a post-bop situation. There is another VV gig that came out on record by Paul Motian's trio back in the late 1990s which is no less intense too although in a fashion that is entirely unique.

    I do find it strange when people insist that something from the past is at a level that will never to achieved again or, conversely, that older stuff is inferior to contemporary artists' work. There is great, good and bad in all periods of jazz history and the great thing about it being improvisational is that it retains the possibility of achieving this again and again. Miles was a one off and for a period of about 25 years he was incredibly creative and set the tone for jazz. Luckily people were around to record his playing but they were absent earlier so we will never know that the Louis / Bix jam session was like or truly get to grips with the live jazz scene before the mid-1930s. Part of me is sympathetic to Joe's argument as there is a lot of indifferent jazz recorded today. There has, however, always been a lot of jazz which has been indifferent but nearly 100 years of analysis has created a narrative where we know broadly what jazz is important and , luckily where musicians had the fortune to be recorded, there are the resources available to rescue the reputations of musicians who have been neglected. Very few artists in 2021 are working at the same level at Miles in the 1960s but where the level remains high, few musicians are given the license to issue their live performances for release. For me, concentrating on Miles and Coltrane really does the music a disservice.
    Having just posted a view on the Electronic composition thread that relates to the above, I must say I am finding myself increasingly in agreement with a lot of what Ian has said (provided we overlook the rather arbitrary final sentance!)

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    • Jazzrook
      Full Member
      • Mar 2011
      • 3061

      Archie Shepp with Roswell Rudd, Donald Garrett, Lewis Worrell & Beaver Harris playing Herbie Nichols' 'Lady Sings The Blues', live at the Both/And Club, San Francisco, 1966:

      Archie Shepp, "Lady sings the blues", album Live in San Francisco, 1966Personnel: Archie Shepp: tenor saxophone, piano, recitationRoswell Rudd: tromboneDonal...


      JR

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      • Stanfordian
        Full Member
        • Dec 2010
        • 9308

        ‘Grab This!’ - Johnny Griffin featuring Paul Bryant
        with Joe Pass, Jimmy Bond & Doug Sides
        Riverside (1962)

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        • Joseph K
          Banned
          • Oct 2017
          • 7765

          Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
          Having just posted a view on the Electronic composition thread that relates to the above, I must say I am finding myself increasingly in agreement with a lot of what Ian has said (provided we overlook the rather arbitrary final sentance!)
          ... and also overlook the fact that a lot of Ian's argument is based on a misapprehension of what I said.

          Comment

          • Serial_Apologist
            Full Member
            • Dec 2010
            • 37559

            Originally posted by Joseph K View Post
            ... and also overlook the fact that a lot of Ian's argument is based on a misapprehension of what I said.
            A lot of that goes on - we have to be grateful for small mercies!

            Comment

            • Stanfordian
              Full Member
              • Dec 2010
              • 9308

              ‘Further Explorations’ – Horace Silver
              with Art Farmer, Clifford Jordon, Teddy Holick with Louis Hayes
              Blue Note (1958)

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              • Joseph K
                Banned
                • Oct 2017
                • 7765

                In 'n Out - Joe Henderson

                Comment

                • Stanfordian
                  Full Member
                  • Dec 2010
                  • 9308

                  ‘Soul Stream’ – George Braith
                  with Billy Gardner, Grant Green & Hugh Walker
                  Blue Note (1963)

                  Comment

                  • elmo
                    Full Member
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 541

                    Poorly recorded but fascinating performance by the Miles Davis Sextet from probably march 1960 with Miles, Trane, Buddy Montgomery Vibes, Wynton Kelly piano, Paul Chambers, Jimmy Cobb drums. The performance comes from an acetate and was probably recorded when the band were in California.
                    The band play "So what" and Miles solo from "Green Dolphin street" fine solo's by Miles and a ferocious long solo by Trane also Buddy seemed to fit in quite well. wish there was more and better recorded


                    Clyp is the easiest way to record, upload and share audio.


                    elmo
                    Last edited by elmo; 08-01-21, 15:18.

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                    • Serial_Apologist
                      Full Member
                      • Dec 2010
                      • 37559

                      Originally posted by elmo View Post
                      Poorly recorded but fascinating performance by the Miles Davis Sextet from probably march 1960 with Miles, Trane, Buddy Montgomery Vibes, Wynton Kelly piano, Paul Chambers, Jimmy Cobb drums. The performance comes from an acetate and was probably recorded when the band were in California.
                      The band play "So what" and Miles solo from "Green Dolphin street" fine solo's by Miles and a ferocious long solo by Trane also Buddy seemed to fit in quite well. wish there was more and better recorded


                      Clyp is the easiest way to record, upload and share audio.


                      elmo
                      That is very interesting: at first I doubted I was listening to Miles Davis! To start with, they play the head to So What in 5/4; secondly the trumpet playing is much broader in tone than one would normally associate with Miles, and he is much more "tied to the scale"; secondly the drummer offers a much bumpier, more interventionist approach than one would expect from Cobby (assuming this would be around 1960?); third Coltrane (for surely 'tis he?) is more in the manner he was going on to develop with his own quartet than in the heretofore superimposed keys approach - I'm hearing Charles Lloyd 6 years ahead; then there's part of a vibes solo! Was this some unofficial tour session with European pick ups? Dolphin St comes across more in expectation range. Have you got any more information, elmo?

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                      • elmo
                        Full Member
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 541

                        Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
                        That is very interesting: at first I doubted I was listening to Miles Davis! To start with, they play the head to So What in 5/4; secondly the trumpet playing is much broader in tone than one would normally associate with Miles, and he is much more "tied to the scale"; secondly the drummer offers a much bumpier, more interventionist approach than one would expect from Cobby (assuming this would be around 1960?); third Coltrane (for surely 'tis he?) is more in the manner he was going on to develop with his own quartet than in the heretofore superimposed keys approach - I'm hearing Charles Lloyd 6 years ahead; then there's part of a vibes solo! Was this some unofficial tour session with European pick ups? Dolphin St comes across more in expectation range. Have you got any more information, elmo?
                        SA Yes it was recorded on march 4th 1960 at the San Francisco auditorium a couple of weeks prior to the European tour when Trane frightened the life out of the Paris audience the band is as above but Buddy Montgomery never came to Europe due to his fear of flying.

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                        • Serial_Apologist
                          Full Member
                          • Dec 2010
                          • 37559

                          Originally posted by elmo View Post
                          SA Yes it was recorded on march 4th 1960 at the San Francisco auditorium a couple of weeks prior to the European tour when Trane frightened the life out of the Paris audience the band is as above but Buddy Montgomery never came to Europe due to his fear of flying.
                          Wes's bruv - fascinating! Thanks for that, Elmo.

                          Comment

                          • Ian Thumwood
                            Full Member
                            • Dec 2010
                            • 4129

                            The Miles clip as bordering on unlistenable but it is fascinating to hear none-the-less. I seem to recall that there are a number of unusual Davis groups in the period after 1960 . For all his reputation, the period from 1960 until "Seven steps" in 1963 is a little bit uneven. The "Sketches of Spain" album is the pick of the bunch from than era although the weakest of the 3 official collaborations with Gil Evans. I have only heard excerpts from the later "Quiet Nights" which was not supposed to have been released. For my money, there are two "transitional" records made with small groups. "SDMPWC" has always struck me as being one of Miles' least interesting records and parts of it almost seem like at attempt to make a Blue Note "Hard Bop" record. Hank Mobley is a mismatch in the front line and I feel was unable to re-cast himself in a MD group the way Cannonball Adderley did. The latter's work with Davis is amongst his best work whereas the tracks with Mobley are disappointing. I do not see it as a bad album as it has that element of Miles' class about it yet is is a little disappointing after the likes of "Milestones" and "Kind of Blue."

                            It is interesting to try to ascertain Davis' relationship with Hard Bop. "SDMPWC" is the closest he achieved but I recall reading in his autobiography how he attempted to rebuild a new band and was frustrated by the fact that many of the players he chose were too rooted in Bop. From recollection, there were other groups which included more "straight ahead" players like J J Johnson and Frank Strozier. I think the great Jimmy Heath also played with a Davis group for while. The Monk Montgomery appearance is a real surprise. When he convened a West Cost pick up group in 1963 for "Seven Steps to Heaven" I think the results are actually far better than anything on "SDMPWC." Everyone always cites the former album for the genesis of the second, great quintet yet the other session is exceptional in my opinion. Vic Feldman is a particular standout. As I said over Christmas, the "Somethin' Else" disc is pretty exceptional and maybe is a better realisation of Davis working in a more Bop-orientated format.

                            The "missing" session I am intrigued to hear is the one cut with a big band around the same time which is alleged to be more orthodox than the stuff with Gil Evans although Davis was supposed to be really pleased with the result. I have only read about this in his book and never encountered anything about this session elsewhere. Davis made a point that it was something Columbia would only release after his death yet 30 years on.

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                            • Joseph K
                              Banned
                              • Oct 2017
                              • 7765

                              Originally posted by Ian Thumwood View Post
                              It is interesting to try to ascertain Davis' relationship with Hard Bop. "SDMPWC" is the closest he achieved ...
                              You seem to be forgetting the early-50s seminal Prestige records like Walkin'... these records - amongst others, by other artists - were the beginning of Hard Bop as far as I know.

                              Comment

                              • Ian Thumwood
                                Full Member
                                • Dec 2010
                                • 4129

                                I just don't buy the idea that Davis ever really played "Hard Bop." The earlier quintet was a class above a lot of what else was being recorded mid-late 1950s and, to my ears at least, seems markedly different to what a label like Blue Note was putting out at the time. I think Davis' influences were cast with a wider net as is typified by the employment of the decidedly un-boppish Red Garland. At that time Davis was listening to people like Ahmed Jamal with the result that the dynamics and structure of what Davis was producing is far more sophisticated than anything else in the era. The results are a million miles away from the kind of high octane music produced by the likes of Silver, Blakey, Brown, etc who were working in the 1950s. Nice to have the ability to choose, though. There is an element of theatre in Miles' work which marks it out , at least until the time of groups such as The Art Ensemble of Chicago. I find both groups to be hugely dramatic.

                                I think that SA made a comment some while back that "Milestones" represents the point at which Miles bid adieu to more Bop influences. Surely Miles' most obvious "bop" recordings stem from the period in early-mid 1950s and before the first quintet ? It is also quite interesting to look at the kind of players he employed. Chambers and Philly Joe fit the bill as coming from a Bop tradition and they were both mainstays on many Blue Note sessions. As to the pianists, I think only Wynton Kelly really fits as a Bop musician and , given that he was easily the best "band pianist" of that generation, you can see why Miles employed him. As for the horn players, I just feel that he wanted musicians who he could mould but also personalities who would motivate and push him. If I recollect the biography correctly, he was really frustrated that he couldn't find musicians original enough to achieve this in the early 1960s. This is why this clip is interesting because it is an experiment. The two most obvious Bop players were Cannonball and Mobley and the latter went because he could not be bent to Miles' whim. Mobley was a big name and I suppose you can draw parallels with say Paul Pogba at Man Utd - incredibly talented but a "wrong fit."

                                It is really interesting hearing a clip like that from a period which is really a creative hiatus. Shame that Miles never trusted the avant garde to pursue that avenue. The second quintet is jazz nirvana yet it passed far too quickly for my liking and it would have been fascinating to hear him explore acoustic jazz more fully. I sometimes wish that these innovations were slower and that a few extra years could be added to the 1960s to see how Miles could have reacted to working with musicians like Cecil Taylor, Bobby Hutcherson or Andrew Hill. I do wonder how much of the "failure" with Sam Rivers stemmed from his playing or were due due appearances and what would have bee achieved had be been retained. For me, this is one combination which i think should have worked although I do think George Coleman's contribution are also under-rated. Not sure it a flirtation with these players would have worked but the scene was so fertile then, you wish there had been more opportunities for him to interact, especially when he had found so many of his contemporaries uninspiring in the first 1/2 of 1960s. Shame he was afraid of becoming irrelevant and went electric at a time when there was still plenty to be said for acoustic jazz even if he was suspicious of Free Jazz.

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