What Jazz are you listening to now?

[Ian Thumwood]

Soweto Kinch reversed my opinions about Rap to some extent with this number, which sends up the genre and its followers as well as stereotyped, sometimes accurate portrayals of jazz venues and afficionado protocols - rather the way Ray Charles had done macho in some of his early songs, the backing Raelets accusing finger pointing back being taken in the spirit intended, I think? I started listening to the few female rappers such as Ms Dynamite - fine as long as they didn't mimic or otherwise mirror the male posturing that remains so predominant and apparently central to the presentation.

This is quite a dramatic statement for you, SA. Increasingly I have found Rap impinging upon jazz at Vienne and there are acts such as Mos Def who I would admit to walking out of simply because there is often very little happening in the music. After 30 minutes I find myself very bored with the lack of variety and development. I can appreciate the spontaneity of the rappers and even go as far as saying that there is even more obviously a connection with poetry (thinking about people like George the Poet, for example) than jazz. It is not too much of a leap even to make comparisons with country blues artists of the 1920s and rap artists as both are effectively chronicling social history in their own ways. Despite this, I am afraid that it is really not for me.

There are other occasions where I have caught acts like Tank and the Bangas where you thought that a female rapper would have offered a different perspective yet the results are (to my ears) so infantile that you wonder how they ever got an invite to perform. Not quite sure quite why you would anticipate a different response from female rappers or expect them to come to the music with a fresh approach. Mary J Blige performed one year and I half expected to be pleasantly surprised yet the music was performed at such an incredible volume it was unbearable. Again, I did not stay around too long for that gig. There was nothing of musical interest in her music.

As a genre in itself, I don't think Rap offers anything musically. The music often consists of 4-bar fragments and I feel that it is Rap and EDM which has effectively opened the door to non-musicians over the course of the last thirty years. A lot of contemporary pop music is so simplistic that their counterparts 30-40 years ago would have been ashamed of publishing some of the material. Rap can no longer really consider itself cutting edge as it edges towards nearly 40 years and, like Rock music, when performed by more "veteran" artists, it can start to be a bit stupid. Surely there must come a point at which you become too old to rap? It is probably a funny perspective to take as I don't think anyone who appreciates Rap is effectively paying attention to the music behind the vocals. If you think of music being made interesting because of melody harmony, rhythm, timbre and form, you would have to argue that this is not at in premium in rap. However, Soweto is not the first musician to blend the two musical styles and when you also hear the likes of Robert Glasper extol particular artists from Rap, it is easy to think that perhaps it's appeal is elusive. Glasper is a strange case in my opinion as he obviously has talent yet his desire to be considered "hip" sounds to be even more futile than the worst of Donald Byrd in the 1970s. I does make me feel like a belong to a totally different generation who are latching onto something that might not have been considered laudable when I first got in to jazz.

Having said this, there are moments when I have heard performers like Napoleon Maddox perform with the French brass ensemble where the music and rapping seem to provide a perfect marriage, the two elements truly complimenting each other. That said, I did wonder just how many of the less youthful audience appreciated that they were being called " a bunch of pussies!" Not a fan of profanity in music for the sake of it - often the reason why I perhaps don't appreciate Frank Zappa as much as I should. Despite these reservations, I really enjoyed Maddox' performance and he was really cool chatting about the likes of Archie Shepp afterwards. Here is a rapper who clearly is a jazz musician at heart. At least in those circumstances the jazz element was as important as the rapping and the whole N'Awlins feel certainly evoked a party atmosphere even when Maddox was making with potent social observations.

One CD that I have been playing a lot during the lockdown is by a group called Bongo Hop who perform a Latin flavoured form of rap / jazz crossover which is exactly the kind of record you might have heard on JazzFM. It is really good fun to listen to and the rapping is used sparingly. I suppose it is a jazz-influenced pop record if you want to be honest. The musicians are churning out some decent tunes and the groove is infectious. I am not sure that I would go much more commercial than this kind of music though.

I am afraid that I cannot be as generous as you towards Rap. I am almost inclined to ask why you are prepared to cut Rap some slack? To pick up on some of your previous comments on this board, for example, would you cut Rap more slack than say Big Band Jazz or say the Classical composer Caroline Shaw who you described a few months ago as "lacking depth?" Without trying to argue that one style of music is better than another, as dots on the page, this kind of music is far, far more sophisticated than Rap. I appreciate that music does not have to be "sophisticated" to be "great" as is the case with the Classic blues musicians, yet I am struggling to understand what is a atypical post by yourself.

Not sure how many others on this board share this enthusiasm for rap. Maybe Bruce but even nippers like Joe have never expressed any enthusiasm for it.

[Serial_Apologist]

OK I acknowledge that Rap as such has not moved forward in any great degree since it first came along in the early 1980s, and that this might have a lot to do with the poetic structures mostly used. In my own case I would take issue with your point about lack of interest in the musical backdrop it present, as this, for me, is often the most interesting thing there is about it! - the little interpolations amid the interstices, and colours - but this has much to do with the incomprehensibility of most of the "lyrics", which are often delivered at speeds which make them inaudible or indecipherable. If the language is street lingo, then maybe the kidz understand it, and appreciate it as "code"; but sheer concentration alone probably precludes attending to the background. I had hoped in the case of women entering the genre that this would change it - Ms Dynamite produced a number, "Fathers", strongly critiqueing the masculine culture, which would be welcome inasmuch as being beyond our proper brief. OK I guess what I'm trying to say is that we need to contextualise what we may have less appreciation of when it forms a sizeable proportion of what forms consciousness and its artistic and musical manifestations in order to understand where jazz is going, and has in fact been going for quite some time. Inevitably this places the likes of myself (white, late middle aged would be a compliment!) beyond the intended reach, which may see me as at best part of the problems that always disadvantage BAME groups and individuals, and at worst unsympathetic to them via failure to at least try to identify, when in fact the "jazz" part of what is being musically incorporated or accommodated is in fact the part that represents what is progressive, universalising, and demanding of encouragement. As a form outside and challenging the social, political and commercial status quo I prefer Rap's secularity to Gospel music, whose musical qualities I have always felt I had to appreciate, notwithstanding the religious and escapist messages epitomised, before most of it acquired the clichéd insipidness now to be regularly heard in Sunday Service from all around the UK, probably instilled in Alpha courses.

[Jazzrook]

Charlie Haden & Ornette Coleman playing 'O.C.' from Haden's 1976 duets album 'Closeness':

https://www.YouTube.com/watch?v=fFskNme5-qw

JR

[Serial_Apologist]

Charlie Haden & Ornette Coleman playing 'O.C.' from Haden's 1976 duets album 'Closeness':

https://www.YouTube.com/watch?v=fFskNme5-qw

JR

The best track on that album, imv.

[Stanfordian]

‘White Gardenia’ - Johnny Griffin - tribute album to jazz singer Billie Holiday
Johnny Griffin with Nat Adderley, Clarke Terry, Ernie Royal, Jimmy Cleveland, Paul Faulise, Urbie Green
Riverside (1961)

[Bert]

Wayne Shorter - Schizophrenia (recorded 1967, released 1969) Blue Note


Curtis Fuller - trombone
James Spaulding - flute, alto sax
Herbie Hancock - piano
Ron Carter - bass
Joe Chambers - drums
Wayne Shorter - tenor sax

[Ian Thumwood]

Been playing a mixture today:-

1. Guillermo Klein & Los Gauchos - "Cristal."

2. Nels Cline - "Lovers" - I like this double CD which is a tongue in cheek "mood music" record with orchestrations by Michael Leonhart supporting the guitarist. The music covers a number of standards but also music by Annette Peacock, Jimmy Guiffre, Arto Lindsey and Billie Holiday. Weird buy strangely fascinating.

3. Jeff Parker - "The New Breed" - Jazz guitar / trip hop.

4. Paul Bley / Paul Motian - "Notes." Something of a classic but you would not expect less from this duo.

5. Paul Bley quartet with John Scofield, Steve Swallow and Barry Altschul. "Hot." Nice to hear Scofield in this live context.

6. Paul Bley / Furio Di Castri / Tony Oxley - "Chaos." This is exceptional. There is a solo drum outing called "Modulating" which I find absolutely staggering on this record. Never heard of the bassist yet this is a fabulous trio. I understand that he is Italian . Never come across his name previously nor recollect hearing him in any other disc. One of the best Bley records I have which is saying a lot. Di Castri is right in there amongst the two more esteemed colleagues. I imagine that both Jazzrook and SA would love this record. Oxley is an extremely good fit with this pianist . This is a disc which should be better known. In fact, the whole 10-CD Soul Note box set is something that I have played a lot over the last 12 months. I am a massive fan of Paul Bley - probably my favourite pianist if not jazz musician.

[Stanfordian]

‘Clark Terry Plays the Jazz Version of All American’
(arrangements by Oliver Nelson)
Clarke Terry with Oliver Nelson, Budd Johnson, Lester Robertson, George Barrow, Eddie Costa, Art Davis & Ed Shaughnessy
Prestige (1961)

[Tenor Freak]

Taking a break from ECM at the mo with Prez and the Oscar Peterson Trio* recorded in 1952. NP: I Can't Get Started.

*quartet with Barney Kessel, Ray Brown and J.C. Heard

[Serial_Apologist]

I imagine that both Jazzrook and SA would love this record.

Speaking for Yours Truly, it's good to know we are in agreement on SOMETHING, at least!

[Ian Thumwood]

I have been listening to a range of stuff this morning:-

1. Hampton Hawes - "All night Session" - Vols 1,2 and 3

2. Nguyen Le - compilation giveaway CD from Jazzwise. I don't think I have ever played it before! Sounds a bit dated buy then realised it is all from 1990s!

3. Steve Owen - music for Large Jazz Ensemble. "Stand up Eight." Not played with for a while but the music is really interesting in a way that is not too dissimilar to Bob Brookmeyer's style of writing. I met him when he performed with the Oregon State University Jazz Ensemble and he was an interesting bloke. I think he has also worked with jazz ensembles in Europe although not in the UK. Not a name that is too familiar but you wonder why someone producing music this good is not better known.

[Stanfordian]

‘Blue Groove’
Gene Ammons with Clarence 'Sleepy' Anderson and unnamed musicians
Prestige (1962)

[Jazzrook]

Pianist Bertha Hope playing 'Elmo's Fire' with Junior Cook, Eddie Henderson, Walter Booker & Larry Williams in 1991:

https://www.YouTube.com/watch?v=hmVLmVn18qI

JR

[Ian Thumwood]

Been playing some more hardcore stuff today...

1. J D Allen - Americana" - Very much in a Coltrane - inspired setting of blues-rooted material. Joe and SA were really under-whelmed by this musician last time I mentioned his music but I am finding myself more impressed the more I listen to him. It is really fascinating to see the reception his music gets on line as the fact that he sticks to the same line up and never really has pet projects. The approach is purely about the music as opposed to producing a product and it is clear that this is resonating with a lot of fans. The nearest comparison for me is a groups like Keith Jarrett's trio which had a similar focus but the more obvious comparison is with Coltrane with a lot of people not slow off the mark to make the comparison.

2. J D Allen - "Barracoon" - New record with a new trio. I feel that this is more interesting, the "in the tradition" feel of the music being pushed towards the direction of Ornette's harmolodics. Probably the best album of last year although run close by....

3. Branford Marsalis - " The secret between the shadow and the soul." Again, whilst be initially impressed with this album, it gets better after each listen. I like the covers on this disc including the free-booting reworking of Jarrett's "The Windup" which certainly gets kicked down the road with joyous abandon.

4. MMW - "Free magic" - The trio put this out around 2013 but it is all acoustic and the live performances which stretch for nearly 15 mins in each instance tends to wear out it's welcome.

[Ian Thumwood]

The other album I played was a disc of Fletcher Henderson's recordings from 1934. The material is really strange for although it includes some charts which were later to be staples of Benny Goodman's band, it also includes other material where other arrangers were responsible for the charts. A lot of this material is missing from the superior "Study in Frustration" box set and it is quite easy to see why.

Henderson is fascinating because he was such an enigma. The liner notes are quite salutary. The March 1934 session was Coleman Hawkins' last with the band and he left shortly afterwards because of the disappointment with Henderson agreeing to play arrangements by inferior arrangers like Russ Morgan and Will Hudson. I had not appreciated that this recording session was instrumental in his departure, It was the straw that broke the camel's back. On top of playing very pedestrian arrangements by arrangers employed by music publishing and recording companies - in other words these arrangers were hacks. Henderson's lack of business acumen saw the band go into an even further decline following a disastrous affiliation with Irving Mills.

The liner notes also testify to the strength of the calibre of soloists in the band and the casual nature of Henderson's approach to gigs which drove his band to despair. Listening to this record, the opening arrangements are really well played yet the charts are dreadful. If this is all you had heard of Henderson, it would be baffling to understand the reputation of this band. By the latter half of this decade, the New York band had been replaced by a harder swinging one based in Chicago where Sun Ra ultimately became the pianist. I think Art Blakey played drums at one point although reputedly not with much success. The 1936-7 band is much better although I think that Goodman's band ultimately provided the best outlet for Henderson's music from 1935 onwards as Henderson's arrangements begin to go to another level. Too much of the CD I played this afternoon sounded like a white dance band. There cannot be many records by bands with this high calibre of personnel in any era of jazz who produced anything quite a dire as these March 1934 sessions. Small wonder Coleman Hawkins quit but a shame that he never remained in the States at his prime and played with either his own band or another leader who had interest in his talent. It seems incredible that Henderson did not do enough to keep him even if he later employed Lester Young briefly and then the more suitable Chu Berry. (Another player who does not deserve to be forgotten and probably Young's main rival for tenor dominance until at least 1940.) On this disc , a very young Ben Webster had replaced Hawkins. When Hawkins recorded again in the States in 1939 , Hawkins seemed reinvigorated. Hawkins produced some of the very best jazz in Europe in the 1934-9 period. I sometimes feel that he is now seriously overlooked and under-appreciated since his is a name you seem to encounter less and less often. In some respects Hawkins seems more of a precursor for the generation of players who followed in the 40s, 50s and 60s than anyone else and I think his reach went far beyond a player like Lester Young. Hawkins still seems relevant when you listen to the likes of Branford Marsalis or David Murray. Still, to think that Henderson employed Hawkins, Young, Berry and Webster in the tenor chair during the 1930s, it is sad that it did not work out better for him.