What Jazz are you listening to now?

[Joseph K]

Allen seems a more logical improviser by contrast, building stacking up phrase after phrase on top of each other.

Ian, could you tell us what you mean by this? I've seen you use this metaphor (?) before, but I can't fathom how a saxophonist can stack anything on top of each other since it's mostly a monophonic instrument, and I don't think you mean multiphonics.

[Serial_Apologist]

This is fascinating. I love the flow of Allen's ideas and good to see his locking horns with an old master. The juxtaposition of styles is quite interesting. Murray is an enigma for me, mixing some pretty coruscating sounds that demonstrates his post-Ayler origins with almost swing era lushness. Sometimes this does sound a but incongruous. This set seems to feature a lot of the latter although it switches when he starts to play "Body & Soul." I sometimes think he is a player who goes from A to Z and by-passes a lot of the stuff in between. To my ears, Murray still sounds like one of the most radical tenor improvisers around today. Allen seems a more logical improviser by contrast, building stacking up phrase after phrase on top of each other. I have to say, I think Allen comes across as far more interesting and there is not really a great deal of empathy between the two horn players until they commence the ballad.

Charles Fox told me he very much liked Murray's referential approach to the likes of Coleman Hawkins when I mentioned how uncomfortable I was with it, as it sounded forced and ungainly as a result to my ears. I just remember the coasting performance he gave at one of the Bath Festivals one year, somewhere around 1991, and telling Andy Sheppard in no uncertain terms as I and my girlfried walked out halfway through. Murray subsequently appeared at my local pub in Bristol (!) and I declined from attending and paying the £20 for the privilege - later to be told that once again people had been disappointed, and Murray had not upped his game until Andy Sheppard, who would often drop in and "apologetically" sit in for a final number, self-excusing on contractual grounds (!!), joined him for a cutting session in the old sense, on some standard or other, and Murray finally showed what he was capable of. In my view he has never "needed" to demonstrate his credentials, dues, or whatever you want to call them, because some of his best playing was in his early 20s, to be found on those loft recordings organised by Sam Rivers; and I don't at all mind his honking contributions to James Ulmer's recordings of the early 1980s - the "rot" set in shortly after.

I loaned two of my Allen CDs to a work colleague who is a big Coltrane fan and he was really impressed although the more "traditional" record "Americana" was preferred to "Barracoon." If there is an issue with Allen, discs like "Americana" demonstrate too much of a reliance on Coltrane as opposed to exploring his own identity. He sounds like a different musician on that record that the other two I have and also on this disc. For me, it was a well played but lacked the originality of the other two records. "Radio Flyer" is also pretty radical and features the guitar of Liberty Elman who pulls the music in to more challenging territory.

Then because we're I think more-or-less in agreement (this time!) I'll cede to what you say, Ian, given that I found the mostly "Americana" stuff on youtube - which was all I listened to - over-reliant on mid-period Coltrane.

Out of interest, there is a new record on Blue Note of James Carter's organ trio recorded live at Newport that has just been released. I saw this group at Vienne a few years back and found the music incredible , mixing swing, R n,b, bop and free in a storming set of material by Django Reinhart. The results should sound incongruous but smashed everything else out of court that year. One of the best gigs I have been to. The audience were whipped in to a frenzy.,

[Serial_Apologist]

Ian, could you tell us what you mean by this? I've seen you use this metaphor (?) before, but I can't fathom how a saxophonist can stack anything on top of each other since it's mostly a monophonic instrument, and I don't think you mean multiphonics.

I would have said "in close juxtaposition" rather than stacked on top of each other, since Coltrane sometimes did adopt an approach in which he tried to approximate to multilayering by switching between different registers, using interlocking ideas - something Evan Parker has attempted, even while admitting he is trying to produce the illusion of counterpoint, in his solo unacompanied soprano saxophone improvisations. I must ask him sometime if this is what he is trying to do - ie develop on what Trane had been doing.

[Ian Thumwood]

The "Americana" album received some good reviews and the music is really well executed. However , I think the music is far too reverential towards Coltrane, right down to the kind of scales employed. It is not at all typical of anything else I have by JD Allen and the fact that all the tunes on the record are too similar to each other does not really make this a winner for me. I think it is actually a little bit boring. (Wish I had chosen "Victory" which is far more interesting.) That said, don't let this album put you off. It is atypical and both "Radio Flyer" and "Barracoon" are far better in my opinion. "Americana" seems to get some pretty uncritical reviews but it is generally noticeable that the other albums he produces seem to suggest a loyal following. A few years back I mentioned JD Allen to a tenor playing friend who is usually into freer styles of jazz and his own thoughts were that he was an exceptional player.

The "stacking up of phrases" shouldn't be too difficult too understand. What I mean is that it refers to someone playing a phrase and following it with another that follows a similar shape or rhythm as opposed to just taking a more "horizontal" approach and stringing scales together. Quite easy to follow if you listen to someone like Sonny Rollins who is improvising on motifs, rhythm and uses what has preceded to create what follows. You can allude to counterpoint in a solo, single line instrument but you get the sense that the solo would make sense even if unaccompanied as opposed to being meaningless if taken totally out of context. You can read a lot of this in the Konitz book written in conjunction with Graham Lock - probably the best book I have read about the improvisation process. No small wonder that Konitz was really in to Bach.

I would have to say that the Coltrane influence does appear to be a starting point but the "sheets of sound" approach has been kicked in to touch to be replaced with measured phrases which recalls Ornette more on the records I have. He is a really contemporary player which makes "Americana" seem so strange because it sounds like Coltrane grafted on to a modern bass player and drummer.

[Serial_Apologist]

Yes.

[Joseph K]

The "stacking up of phrases" shouldn't be too difficult too understand. What I mean is that it refers to someone playing a phrase and following it with another that follows a similar shape or rhythm as opposed to just taking a more "horizontal" approach and stringing scales together. Quite easy to follow if you listen to someone like Sonny Rollins who is improvising on motifs, rhythm and uses what has preceded to create what follows. You can allude to counterpoint in a solo, single line instrument but you get the sense that the solo would make sense even if unaccompanied as opposed to being meaningless if taken totally out of context. You can read a lot of this in the Konitz book written in conjunction with Graham Lock - probably the best book I have read about the improvisation process. No small wonder that Konitz was really in to Bach.

In what sense are these phrases 'on top of each other' though? Is this a phrase you have invented yourself or one that you've come across in a book or article? I mean 'on top of each other' would appear to be unambiguously describing a simultaneity and yet in your explanation of your 'stacking' metaphor, it appears to be describing a succession of ideas, rather than a simultaneity. I don't think it's difficult to understand, but I do think it's not a very helpful metaphor - and your explanation of it sort of digs deeper in that it's similarly cloudy-minded, e.g. how is 'stacking phrases' not 'horizontal' and why is 'stringing scales together' necessarily horizontal and why are they necessarily dichotomous? I mean, all the great jazz improvisers will use techniques to create coherence in their improvisations, rather than merely 'stringing scales together', so does this mean all the greats 'stack phrases'?

[Ian Thumwood]

Joe

Why don't you listen to the track Jazzrook posted and compare the styles of Allen and Murray which will give you a better understanding of what I mean ?

I don't agree about improvisers all being able to create coherent solos but it is what separates the masters from the rest. I think the idea of "horizontal" comes from either John Mehegen or Gunther Schuller and stems from the idea of producing solos which follow scales whereas "vertical" is based more on the intervals of chords. There are plenty of lesser improvisers who often run the changes and this approach is probably best typified by the musicians around in the late 40's. You hear this all the time from that era, especially in jam sessions. This was my understanding of the difference.

However, this video seems to give a different interpretation:-

[Ian Thumwood]

This is a bit better....

[Stanfordian]

‘Soul Street’ – Jimmy Forrest
Jimmy Forrest inc. Art Farmer, Ernie Royal, Idrees Sulieman, Jimmy Cleveland, George Buster Cooper, Jerome Richardson, George Barrow, Pepper Adams
New Jazz (1960/62)

[Jazzrook]

The 1964 album 'Crescent' by John Coltrane who would have been 93 today(September 23):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrqb0373cVs

JR

[Joseph K]

The 1964 album 'Crescent' by John Coltrane who would have been 93 today(September 23):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrqb0373cVs

JR

[Ian Thumwood]

This review is quite revealing for anyone tempted by the latest "lost" Coltrane recordings which appears to be less than essential:-

https://www.allaboutjazz.com/blue-world-john-coltrane-impulse-review-by-victor-l-schermer.php

The most revealing statement in the article is the extent of unreleased Coltrane material that remains in the Verve vaults that originates from live performances. This would appear to exceed the extent of recorded material by John Coltrane previously made available including music made under the leadership of others. I found this to be quite staggering if it is to be believed. I have never attempted to ascertain just how many records of his work have been released to date but this makes the releases in 2018 and 2019 seem almost insignificant in comparison.

Something of this extent would have the possibility to change the perception of his work and I wonder of anyone has gone through it all just to ascertain how much of it needs to see the light of day. This seems to be increasingly common practice these days with so much new material being unearthed. The same review page also looks at the recordings made by Art Pepper, a musician who is increasingly remote to younger fans these days (wonder if Joe has ever heard Pepper play?) and difficult to find on disc yet who was considered to be one of the finest jazz musicians around when I was getting in to the music. It is fascinating how he has slipped from the consciousness of so many fans these days whereas when he died in 1982 he had already produced over 10 year's worth of music that seemingly would have cemented his reputation. Pepper's early recordings were always good but the music he was producing in the 1970s still takes some beating for potency. Whilst still not quite at the intensity of Coltrane, Pepper is one of those players who wasn't far off! If you to be critical of the current jazz scene, it is that there are few players around performing at that level of intensity. Like Coltrane, new recordings keep surfacing but all too frequently at prices which seem really expensive. When you consider that he frequently had players like Charlie Haden and George Cables perform in his bands, there is added reason to check his music out. The local BBC Radio jazz programme was almost obsessed by Pepper at the time and albums like "The trip" were venerated.

[Joseph K]

JD Allen & David Murray with Ian Kensellar(bass) & Nick Cacioppo(drums) at the SubCulture Club, NYC on January 12, 2019:

https://www.YouTube.com/watch?v=qLENAuAYGG8

JR

I am currently listening to this.

Ian's comment still makes no sense - no phrase is stacked on another, his playing (which is really good BTW) is monophonic, as I suspected.

EDIT: And Murray is something else, wow!

[Stanfordian]

'Criss-Cross'
Thelonious Monk with Charlie Rouse, John Ore & Frankie Dunlop
Columbia (1963)

[Joseph K]

Mike Stern - Standards and Other Songs