What Jazz are you listening to now?

[Old Grumpy]

Henri Texier on Jazz Now before a) it disappears off my iPlayer Radio downloads, b) iPlayer Radio disappears and is replaced by sounds and c) Jazz Now is "rested" (in the sense of "in peace") from transmission.

OG

[Ian Thumwood]

This strikes me as a weird sort of assertion. Are there degrees of free-ness in free jazz? I've never come across any atonal Rollins playing, nor records of his that feature the radical textures and forms of Ascension, Meditations or Interstellar Space. Coltrane's free playing, while mostly based on modes and transposing motives, does feature atonal passages...

Joe

Basically boils down to playing on chord sequences which change key with frequency throughout the form as opposed to coming of scales where you have the "off /on" scenario. For all the puff about Coltrane playing atonal, a lot of his improvisation stems from coming off a scale. I..e making the base material simpler and "flattening" out the harmony. I love Coltrane but the question of the "freeness" of his playing is subjective in comparison with his contemporaries. For example, I don't think he was anywhere as near as radical as Cecil Taylor - probably the most successful atonal improviser in jazz?

Harmonically, Rollins is more traditional but I just feel that he transcends running changes. The "Lady Bird" clip was a good example as it is difficult to sometimes hear the form within the solo. I am not saying this is superior to Coltrane but I would argue that the use of motifs like this has more traction with contemporary players as opposed to playing modes which sounds dated in 2019. Rollins does beyond be-bop even though this is the music he came out of. I still consider him amongst the very pantheon of creative improvisers which would have to include for me Parker, Konitz, Coltrane , Taylor and Bley.

The whole idea of improvising on motifs is fascinating. I have been listen a lot to Paul Bley over the last 6 months and you can hear the same kind of process here where ideas are stacked up upon each other in contrast to Coltrane's more linear use of modes. The process of improvising in a series of building blocks is fascinating. At the top of his game on tracks like the "One up , one down" disc, Coltrane is imperious. I totally concur with your enthusiasm for this record which I feel has some of his best playing on. However, it is risky. I find discs like "Impressions" mind numbingly dull. It doesn't always come off, although this is probably a rare example. Playing in a two chord vamp can quickly become tedious. Personally, I am not pulled in by the less inspired Coltrane stuff as I am by most of Rollins - maybe because I feel Rollins is more unpredictable and rhythmically more interesting. Having seen Rollins a few times, at his best, I found the experience totally gripping with these long, extruded ideas flowing from his tenor. Rollins is more rhythmically interesting and a lot of the appeal in his playing is how he pulls against the bass and drums he is pitted with. Another really great improvisor rhythmically was Dizzy Gillespie. There is masses of colour within Gillespie's playing with his exquisite use of timbre and dynamics but he also has a really sly way of dealing with the beat. A more contemporary player who is interesting rhythmically is Steve Coleman who is really over-looked these days.

I would not argue that Rollins or Coltrane were better or equal to each other. It is a totally different approach. You are not comparing apples for apples. However, I feel that those players who have more free-flowing ideas these days are probably those coming out of Rollins more than Coltrane. Certainly, I don't feel that Coltrane is anywhere as near as influential in 2019 as he was when I was getting in to jazz in the Ealey 1980s when that sound was as ubiquitous then as Brad Mehldau (on another instrument) is now.

[Serial_Apologist]

I agree with both of you! Rollins's split second note placement together with rhythmic displacement is in many ways as radical as Trane's modal approach to improvising. But the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive: players such as Joe Henderson, Sam Rivers, Wayne Shorter, Benny Maupin and Evan Parker evince intermediary conceptualisations between the modal and the rhythmic - at the freer end of the spectrum this offering additional means to breaking down and re-conceptualising the interactive roles and functionings of front line and rhythm section, while in straighter ahead post-bop situations the harmonic structures evolved in the 1960s and onwards have differentiated less than previously between what is modal and what is diatonic - a practice ironically with much in common with Vaughan Williams as he moved beyond neo-archaic modalism (eg Tallis fantasia) into more chromatic areas in his music of the 1920s (eg "Job"). There was some truth in what Litweiler said when he wrote that with Coltrane the emphasis in his imoprovising was always fixed on initially stating the downbeat, and leaving the freeing up to amount to decorative elaboration, chiefly courtesy Elvin Jones's way of complexifying the input of subordiate metrical and rhythmic embellishment over a basic 4/4 or 3/4 (mostly) to create a backdrop of rising and falling tensions counterpointing the soloist, though I think he rather overstated Trane's orthodoxy regarding time and rhythm.

[Ian Thumwood]

SA

What fascinates me about jazz is the mixing up of rhythms in a group. A lot of the appeal of Rollin's playing stems from the fact that he frequently looks to play phrases do not fit at all with the sub-divisions in the bar or which are rhythmically opposed to what the bass and drums are playing. He often jumps off on phrases from odd beats. There are few jazz musicians who are as good as Rollins at this. I don't think Rollins is an intense a soloist as Coltrane yet he offers something different and an approach to improvisation which is compelling. There is a real sense of architecture in his solos which is incredible given the length they sometimes extend to.

I have been listening a lot to J D Allen of late. He is a name that was familiar to me but until a couple of years ago I had only got one record with him on which was Jamieo Brown's rather curious mix and match of contemporary jazz and field hollers. Allen has now led two different trios with the one with Gregg August and Rudy Royston being in existence for about 15 years. It is quite interesting to compare and contrast the one record I have by the initial group with the newer trio which has made it's debut on " Barracoon." The first is largely blues or blues based material and is described in the liner notes as Allen's thoughts on blues and jazz. I was really surprised by this disc as the music heavily reminds me of albums like "Crescent" and the ghost of "Bessie's Blues" seems to float around the record. The bass and particularly the drums of Royston function quite differently from Garrison and Royston and you can tell this is a stellar band. However, I would have to say that it is nowhere as good as the new disc which moves away from exploring scales and explores the whole process of improvising from motifs. If you like, it is almost like Coltrane meets latter day Ornette. Although the music is often pretty abstract, the music on the second record is far more compelling than the more straight ahead first disc. Generally the reviews on Amazon were a bit enthusiastic for the old trio record which swings in the traditional sense. "Barracoon" is the better of the two because Allen is unfettered by playing scales and seems liberated by a bassist and drummer who are more interested in interrupting the groove than producing something to underpin the horn. Allen's playing on this disc also reminded me a bit of Rollins in his approach albeit Rollins was never this abstract. The album does venture in to harmolodics. By contrast, the blues disc is a bit of a let down to be honest and the indebtedness to Coltrane's tone and dynamics, whilst not slavish, is nowhere as personal as on the latest record . It is good but the territory is perhaps too familiar. By contrast, "Barracoon" is one of the best discs in 2019 in my opinion. Whilst the trio with August and Royston has been lauded in the jazz press for a series of very strong albums, I think the new trio has the potential to be even better.

[Joseph K]

Joe

Basically boils down to playing on chord sequences which change key with frequency throughout the form as opposed to coming of scales where you have the "off /on" scenario. For all the puff about Coltrane playing atonal, a lot of his improvisation stems from coming off a scale. I..e making the base material simpler and "flattening" out the harmony.

Ian. I know I've mentioned this before, but have you actually listened to Interstellar Space? On this record there is no base material - no harmonic backdrop - Coltrane plays scales but there is none of what you call the 'off/on' scenario because there is no harmonic backdrop. Coltrane modulates freely - and very colourfully - so from a tonal point of view this is no less interesting than his earlier work playing over changes - in fact, as has been stated on here before, but appears to be worth repeating, since Coltrane is improvising the harmony (as opposed to having the harmonic backdrop already in place) this brings a whole new dimension into the realm of 'what is improvised'; I dislike making comparisons to the detriment of an artist, but since you were the one to do that initially, I'll just state that I know of no Sonny Rollins record where he does something as radical as that (not that I wish to make a value judgement).

[Stanfordian]

‘Most Much!’
Jimmy Forrest with Hugh Lawson Tommy Potter, Calernce Johnson & Ray Barretto
Prestige (1961)

[Serial_Apologist]

Ian. I know I've mentioned this before, but have you actually listened to Interstellar Space? On this record there is no base material - no harmonic backdrop - Coltrane plays scales but there is none of what you call the 'off/on' scenario because there is no harmonic backdrop. Coltrane modulates freely - and very colourfully - so from a tonal point of view this is no less interesting than his earlier work playing over changes - in fact, as has been stated on here before, but appears to be worth repeating, since Coltrane is improvising the harmony (as opposed to having the harmonic backdrop already in place) this brings a whole new dimension into the realm of 'what is improvised'; I dislike making comparisons to the detriment of an artist, but since you were the one to do that initially, I'll just state that I know of no Sonny Rollins record where he does something as radical as that (not that I wish to make a value judgement).

You're right about Coltrane: other recordings such as Expression show the same methodology, in which Coltrane spontaneously extends modality into less easily defined harmonic regions which often only reveal themselves after several hearings, if at all. Where is is in company with Alice and Rashied they mould themselves around what he is doing. Rollins's practice around the same time, which we saw at Ronnie's in '66, was to come in already improvising on some standard, to which the band was expected to latch onto, and would extend unaccompanied at the end of a number to create spontaneous links to the number that was to follow. Where the music was going in these "cadenzas" was literally anybody's guess: they contained often hilarious quotes from totally unexpected sources, Strauss's "Skaters Waltz" being one I remember - but slotted into a free association continuum of modulations and explorations outside specific harmonic areas - a practice he took up again in the 1980s in completely unaccompanied concerts at festivals etc which followed the same strategy: you can hear the audience responding with laughter and applause at points of recognition. To me this was as near as dammit to the spirit of surprise and audience total engagement as is possible to get.

[Joseph K]

On which note, here is Rollins playing a tune I've been working on for a while:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGcsIaErFFw

I think SA that Rollins toured Europe, including Britain, in the latter half of 66 in place of Coltrane who had to cancel because of his health problems.

[Serial_Apologist]

On which note, here is Rollins playing a tune I've been working on for a while:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGcsIaErFFw

There's another, more "out" version of that tune from 2 years earlier, with Don Cherry alongside Sonny. Norma Winstone's partner is called Hugh Mitchell, and once when she was telling me something about him, I had to suppress an impulse to deliver one of my specials: "Of course, there' will never be another Hugh"!

I think SA that Rollins toured Europe, including Britain, in the latter half of 66 in place of Coltrane who had to cancel because of his health problems.

I didn't know that, Joseph. A school friend and I booked to see him at Ronnie Scott's, and before the interval, Ronnie announced that, "I'm afraid Sonny Rollins won't be on tonight, because he's... indisposed" My mate whispered "Probably stoned" - which in retrospect was in all probability totally wrong, as Sonny was incredibly disciplined and obviously was looking after himself. We were told if we left our names and addresses on leaving we could return a few nights later and get in for nothing, which I did - my mate was unable to make it, and missed an amazing evening. Later I encountered quite a number of top British musicians who were in the audience that night, and could remember Sonny's emergence from the Gents playing, (in some versions it was from a taxi), and making his way onto the bandstand, where he stood right on the edge facing the band with his back to a table where two young women were sat, looking up worriedly, while Sonny delivered one of his then non-stop medleys for possibly an hour, wondering if he would topple backwards and land on their table! The band had to figure out what Sonny was playing, and it was the club's bass player, who was either Jeff Clyne or Dave Green for the occasion, who was always the first to "twig".

[Joseph K]

Nice anecdotes.

[Joseph K]

Same tune, played this time by Julian Lage, and it's really lovely. The whole performance is on youtube but here you can also see a transcription.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emNnD76ONxE

[Ian Thumwood]

There's another, more "out" version of that tune from 2 years earlier, with Don Cherry alongside Sonny. Norma Winstone's partner is called Hugh Mitchell, and once when she was telling me something about him, I had to suppress an impulse to deliver one of my specials: "Of course, there' will never be another Hugh"!



I didn't know that, Joseph. A school friend and I booked to see him at Ronnie Scott's, and before the interval, Ronnie announced that, "I'm afraid Sonny Rollins won't be on tonight, because he's... indisposed" My mate whispered "Probably stoned" - which in retrospect was in all probability totally wrong, as Sonny was incredibly disciplined and obviously was looking after himself. We were told if we left our names and addresses on leaving we could return a few nights later and get in for nothing, which I did - my mate was unable to make it, and missed an amazing evening. Later I encountered quite a number of top British musicians who were in the audience that night, and could remember Sonny's emergence from the Gents playing, (in some versions it was from a taxi), and making his way onto the bandstand, where he stood right on the edge facing the band with his back to a table where two young women were sat, looking up worriedly, while Sonny delivered one of his then non-stop medleys for possibly an hour, wondering if he would topple backwards and land on their table! The band had to figure out what Sonny was playing, and it was the club's bass player, who was either Jeff Clyne or Dave Green for the occasion, who was always the first to "twig".

I think this has been a feature of his playing, especially after albums like "the Freedom Suite."

One of the criteria that separates the men from the boys in improvisation is the ability to lose the form of a tune when playing a line. What I love about Sonny is the fact that he manages to mask the fact that he is launching in to another chorus and has the ability to pummel the form out of a tune. Coltrane managed to do this by simplifying the form in to tonal centres which allowed the form to be "dissolved" but I feel that Rollin's approach in not taking this intervallic approach is more difficult to pull off. I find this style of improvising hugely compelling to listen to

[burning dog]

Rollins has described himself as a "Stream of Conciousness" player.

[Stanfordian]

‘Hear Ye!’
Harold Land with Red Mitchell, Carmell Jones, Frank Strazzeri & Leon Pettis
Atlantic (1961)

[Quarky]

Rollins - Without a Song - from the 9/11 concert.

Just relaxing into Sonny.