What Jazz are you listening to now?

[burning dog]

Gabarek certainly chose his modern tone and good luck to him. His later music is not to my taste but he was/is a remarkable sax player possibly the greatest young player outside of the USA at the time of the performance below. He played too many notes here, I supect some would say, rather than too few. His playing owes a lot to Coltrane* but he seems to playing free to me, not paying much attention to harmony, despite the piano which although bears a passing resemblance to McCoy Tyner is more like toned percussion than anything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoXgul5HxkQ

* So imaging how many million times more than Coltranes this solo must be worth according to SAs freind

[Serial_Apologist]

Gabarek certainly chose his modern tone and good luck to him. His later music is not to my taste but he was/is a remarkable sax player possibly the greatest young player outside of the USA at the time of the performance below. He played too many notes here, I supect some would say, rather than too few. His playing owes a lot to Coltrane but he seems to playing free to me, not paying much attention to harmony, despite the piano which although bears a passing resemblance to McCoy Tyner is more like toned percussion than anything.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PoXgul5HxkQ

Lovely clip - and it reinforces my argument. The piece revolves around a Dorian mode rooted on B flat; Garbarek weaves around that scale, sometimes modulating to other scales, particularly at the tritone (augmented 4th, which would be E natural), returning from time to time to that root, but exploding into overtones and upper pitch extremes at times in such a way as to obscure precise pitch. Very "late Coltrane". Oh and it also prompts the suggestion that improvising against one note or chord has to stick rigidly to that note or chord, and that the harmonic "anchorage" provided by piano and bass, and rhythmically by the drums, can also reach levels of complexity that obscure underlying form. In this kind of music, the "listener experience" is furthered by "feeling" the tension between where the music is coming from and on which it is originally based, and the (dare I say?) spirit informing energies being collectively unleashed. I think of this kind of engulfment at the level of response as the nearest thing to being a modern equivalent to how tribespeople have "got off", and been transported into higher regions of consciousness some have called the dissolution of the ego, when present at a community gathering at which polythmic/polymetric drums are played and danced to - the common factor being rhythm, the difference being that the complexity of information, intellectual and sensory, perpetually imposed by modern civilisation, invokes an analogous complexity expressed through harmonic expansion, probably modern classical music's main contribution to jazz. One is of course speaking in metaphor, unless one believes that actual spirits are being invoked; but the fact of neurochemical release and positive conviviality reinforcing a sense of "oneness" can answer for itself. Just to add (imo) that it doesn't have to amount to sensory bludgeoning of the kind indulged in "raves" - one can get "lost" in wave reflections rippling under a canal bridge; this only seems to be the case in a world in which we are already de-sensitised and therefore in need (apparently) of sensory over-stimulation to "get" anywhere, or, rather, be "in the eternal now".

Edit: what concerns me more than anything else about Jan Garbarek is the extent to which, with each passing year, he gets more and more to resemble David Owen!

[Ian Thumwood]

No quite sure how Garbarek ended up here!!

As I said earlier, the music is all about the tone of the saxophone which, I would admit, is immediately recognisable. I am just posting this clip as an example but it is difficult to see any relationship to jazz in this music. It is musical wallpaper.

It is hard to think of many jazz musicians whose work has seen such a significant falling off in quality as Garbarek's. It has come to the point where it is difficult to make any case in favour of it as intellectual music. What is amazing for me is that ECM was very much the record label transforming notions of what jazz could be from the very start. Everything they released seemed to have a veneer of striving for high quality craftsmanship and there was a sense of earnestness about the records they issued that seemed to what to demonstrate that they were serious about what they released. There have been countless stories of recording sessions not seeing the light of day because Eicher was dissatisfied with the results.

I would readily own up to having been an ECM fanatic. The label produced a swathe of albums that were instrument in enhancing my appreciation of jazz especially when I was in my late teens and early twenties. The albums strongly resonated with me and some albums from that time still do. I do feel that the best albums that ECM have released always seem to be those that are centred more closely to the jazz tradition. There are albums by the likes of Jack DeJohnette, Ralph Towner, Tomasz Stanko, Dave Holland, Chick Corea, Charles Lloyd, Lester Bowie, , Paul Bley, Keith jarrett, Don Cherry and John Abercrombie that are central to the jazz canon. I think that the label may be iconic and shame the same kind of unthinking fanaticism as classic Blue Note recordings yet I think that they have issued a massive amount of really mediocre records over the years and a good proportion of the output does sound either superficial or dated. Returning to some of the old ECM records in my collection, there are a good few which have aged poorly and the lack of contrast in mood across a significant proportion of the record is a massive stumbling block. Too often, ECM records are the aural equivalent of Nouvelle Cuisine in that it looks pretty but has no substance.

An interesting experience for me several months back was reading on line reviews of old ECM records that I had enjoyed in the past. This was prompted by the most recent ECM re-issue programme. I was quite shocked to see how one prominent review site seemed to consistently rate ECM records with 2/5 stars even on records I had previously rated. In some respects I think Bluesnik has nailed it on the head with American's not getting Garbarek yet I would tend to agree with the more "traditional" perspective as to why Garbarek's music is so disappointing. Ultimately, he sold out and has produced records every bit as commercial as the late 1960s output on Blue Note. It may sound different but he still sold his soul to easy listening music. Like so much on ECM, the further the musicians tend to deviate from jazz, the weaker the results tends to become. Garbarek suffers from being over-recorded as well as producing stuff which is pretty powder puff in comparison with so much jazz. It is really difficult to laud his playing in the context of someone such as Steve Coleman who also has an amazing sound but who has managed to focus it on music that is constantly challenging. Garbarek is probably the most pointless of all artists on ECM - pink bons-bons wrapped in snow as Debussy said of Greig.

[Serial_Apologist]

No quite sure how Garbarek ended up here!!

As I said earlier, the music is all about the tone of the saxophone which, I would admit, is immediately recognisable. I am just posting this clip as an example but it is difficult to see any relationship to jazz in this music. It is musical wallpaper.

It is hard to think of many jazz musicians whose work has seen such a significant falling off in quality as Garbarek's. It has come to the point where it is difficult to make any case in favour of it as intellectual music. What is amazing for me is that ECM was very much the record label transforming notions of what jazz could be from the very start. Everything they released seemed to have a veneer of striving for high quality craftsmanship and there was a sense of earnestness about the records they issued that seemed to what to demonstrate that they were serious about what they released. There have been countless stories of recording sessions not seeing the light of day because Eicher was dissatisfied with the results.

I would readily own up to having been an ECM fanatic. The label produced a swathe of albums that were instrument in enhancing my appreciation of jazz especially when I was in my late teens and early twenties. The albums strongly resonated with me and some albums from that time still do. I do feel that the best albums that ECM have released always seem to be those that are centred more closely to the jazz tradition. There are albums by the likes of Jack DeJohnette, Ralph Towner, Tomasz Stanko, Dave Holland, Chick Corea, Charles Lloyd, Lester Bowie, , Paul Bley, Keith jarrett, Don Cherry and John Abercrombie that are central to the jazz canon. I think that the label may be iconic and shame the same kind of unthinking fanaticism as classic Blue Note recordings yet I think that they have issued a massive amount of really mediocre records over the years and a good proportion of the output does sound either superficial or dated. Returning to some of the old ECM records in my collection, there are a good few which have aged poorly and the lack of contrast in mood across a significant proportion of the record is a massive stumbling block. Too often, ECM records are the aural equivalent of Nouvelle Cuisine in that it looks pretty but has no substance.

An interesting experience for me several months back was reading on line reviews of old ECM records that I had enjoyed in the past. This was prompted by the most recent ECM re-issue programme. I was quite shocked to see how one prominent review site seemed to consistently rate ECM records with 2/5 stars even on records I had previously rated. In some respects I think Bluesnik has nailed it on the head with American's not getting Garbarek yet I would tend to agree with the more "traditional" perspective as to why Garbarek's music is so disappointing. Ultimately, he sold out and has produced records every bit as commercial as the late 1960s output on Blue Note. It may sound different but he still sold his soul to easy listening music. Like so much on ECM, the further the musicians tend to deviate from jazz, the weaker the results tends to become. Garbarek suffers from being over-recorded as well as producing stuff which is pretty powder puff in comparison with so much jazz. It is really difficult to laud his playing in the context of someone such as Steve Coleman who also has an amazing sound but who has managed to focus it on music that is constantly challenging. Garbarek is probably the most pointless of all artists on ECM - pink bons-bons wrapped in snow as Debussy said of Greig.

While I think Debussy was unfair in his jibe about Greig (by whom he was somewhat influenced!), I do wholeheartedly agree with your Garbarek criticisms!

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Has Garbarek written any film music? I'm not widely familiar with his output, as I've said it leaves me cold. But, listening to some of the ECM tracks up on YouTube, it does remind me a lot of the music used in a certain kind of '80s European film, not particularly "art", but where depth and solemnity is hopefully "indicated" by the director. I guess it's his indirect influence rather than any actual presence.

[Joseph K]

The transcription gets blocked annoyingly. But just listen to some of those mystical sounding Coltrane-esque harmonic substitutions!

[Ian Thumwood]

Has Garbarek written any film music? I'm not widely familiar with his output, as I've said it leaves me cold. But, listening to some of the ECM tracks up on YouTube, it does remind me a lot of the music used in a certain kind of '80s European film, not particularly "art", but where depth and solemnity is hopefully "indicated" by the director. I guess it's his indirect influence rather than any actual presence.

I think that Garbarek has worked with Greek film composer Eleni Karaindrou who has also recorded for ECM. I know nothing about her music and my experience of Greek drama is limited to Antigone.

There is often a filmic quality about a lot of ECM work. I am not too familiar with European cinema music but I recall being hugely impressed by the music to the film "Three colours: Blue" by Zbigniew Priesner. I don't think I have ever seen a film where the music almost becomes a character like this effort although, of the three films, "White" was the one that was amusing. I have another ECM record by Arild Anderson which was written for a film and it would not surprise me in the least if there was a significant proportion on music on ECM which originated as a soundtrack.

It is funny when looking up ECM records that the cover art still manages to entice. Around the early 1990s, their covers became increasingly plain and it was around this time that I lost my enthusiasm for their releases. However, where they have photos on the cover, the pictures still invoke a degree of curiosity which is also served by some of the titles they give to the albums. I used to have a catalogue of the complete ECM releases around the late 1980s and the combination of titles and cover art fascinated me. They provoke your interest and imagination in a way that few other labels manage to do. The plainer covers that the label favours now is actually off-putting to the point of irritation.

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

Yes, I've got that ECM catalogue, or one very like it. The covers and the interspersed black & white photography is very distinctive, an original house style in its own way as Bluenote.

BN.

[burning dog]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7-WoFL3jCLc

typical ECM?

Obviously a trbute to this version

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pn8SFdyOA_M

[burning dog]

"The piece revolves around a Dorian mode rooted on B flat"

Well he is tenor player!

Im very keen on Eb

On the piano (which I barely play) I'd favour the dorian in C of course

[Jazzrook]

Pianist George Wallington with J.R. Monterose(tenor sax); Teddy Kotick(bass) & Nick Stabulas(drums) playing 'The Prestidigitator' in 1957:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYa1ozCF7Xs

JR

[Serial_Apologist]

On the piano (which I barely play) I'd favour the dorian in C of course

Then you might not know that the Dorian for all the white keys is the one "in" D. But, take no notice of this unreconstructed escapee from the Pedants board!

[burning dog]

Then you might not know that the Dorian for all the white keys is the one "in" D. But, take no notice of this unreconstructed escapee from the Pedants board!

I was (kind of) aware of that but I like to know where the "blue" notes are.... And guitarists can only play in C * as is well known (another reason for getting a C melody sax?)

End the oppression of transposing now!!

* Ive heard C is actually hard to play on gutiar

[Stanfordian]

‘Go’
Paul Chambers with Julian ‘Cannonball’ Adderley, Freddie Hubbard, Jimmy Cobb, Wynton Kelly & Philly Joe Jones
Vee Jay (1959)

[Joseph K]

Dexter Gordon Quartet - There Will Never Be Another You

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3IGe2m--7U