What Jazz are you listening to now?

[Rcartes]

I can't stop listening to Ugetsu: Art Blakey's Jazz Messengers at Birdland, especially the title track. Superb solos all round, and the extended breaks at the end are terrific.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMDCdSv11no

Absolutely wonderful!

[Stanfordian]

‘Kenny Dorham Quintet’
Kenny Dorham with Jimmy Heath, Walter Bishop, Percy Heath & Kenny Clarke
Debut (1953)

[Stanfordian]

‘Kenny Dorham Quintet’
Kenny Dorham with Jimmy Heath, Walter Bishop, Percy Heath & Kenny Clarke
Debut (1953)

[Stanfordian]

‘Blowing in from Chicago’
Clifford Jordan and John Gilmore with Horace Silver, Curly Russell & Art Blakey
Blue Note (1957)

[Ian Thumwood]

I've been playing an unusual Paul Bley live recording from the late 1980s which features a bizarre line up of John Abercrombie, Barry Altschul and bassist Red Mitchell almost sounding like a ringer. The repertoire is largely a set of standards apart from a Bley original and a breakneck version of Ornette's "When will the blues leave." You don't tend to get so many of the ad hoc records being released these day s and I think most fans seeing a record with "Lover man", "My foolish heart", etc on it might be disinclined towards records with over familiar tunes on. I find this a massive turn off with records myself and there are times when you get bored with the same melodies or over-familiar chord changes.

I was a bit disappointed with this CD to begin with but I have warmed to it. It is quite unusual as I have never heard Paul Bley in quite a mainstream context as this. I am a massive fan of Abercrombie and I find it intriguing to hear him outside of an ECM studio context. The music is much less rarefied than you expect either from Bley or ECM and Altschul's drumming if often straight down the middle. The most unusual aspect of the disc is Mitchell's bass playing. When I was first discovering jazz Mitchell was one of those musicians I always dreaded hearing on Humphrey Lyttelton and have never really got over my prejudice of his playing. Initially it was the fact that he sounded too tame and quiet for my tastes at the time yet listening again he baffles me for more technical reasons. On his first solo he plays an R n'B cliché which I find incredible and can only be accounted for him going in to auto-pilot on the live recording. His sound is bizarre and I believe this is due to his unique tuning of his instrument. His sound is somewhere between the rubbery one produced by the likes of Ron Carter back in the 1970s and Eberhard Weber. In the case of the former, that sound just screams out 1970's Aebersold play-a-long." (If you have the Horace Silver volume, you will know what I mean.) In his solos, the bass purrs and there is a rather unnatural effect of the notes not decaying as quickly as you would have anticipated. It is strange hearing this sound as late as 1988.

Despite these technical issues, I suppose this record turns one of the things I love about jazz on its head. This is the appearance of a more modern voice in a group of musicians such as you find with Christian / Goodman, Young / Basie, Dolphy / Oliver Nelson, etc. You can imagine Paul Bley being associated with the drummer and maybe understand that there would have been an appeal for him to join forces with John Abercrombie who sounds more orthodox away from Eicher's production values. By contrast, Red Mitchell seems a weird choice as a bassist and someone who was not only from an earlier generation of players but a conservative one at that. Looking at the personnel on this record, Red Mitchell would appear to be too "old fashioned." (The rest of the boxset includes players like Tony Oxley which only exaggerates the impression.)

It made me think of the Kirk Knuffke record of a few years back where he put together a trio with guests such as avant gardist Daniel Carter but underpinned everything with the drumming of Bill Goodwin. In this context, Goodwin just seemed to relish the experience and, being cast in an unlikely scenario, he is the best thing about the record to be honest. By contrast, Mitchell seems like a safe pair on hands. Listening to the record this evening I am far more enthused by this record than on first listen yet the bass playing alone makes this sound like a mainstream date. If anything, it is an intriguing listen because it is so odd.

It would be fun to run another thread or perhaps a JRR series of older musicians working in a context with a younger generation of musicians whose music is generally far removed from the former? The obvious example is the Monk / Pee-Wee Russell record but you can understand why they would have made such a good pairing. The only really "odd" situation quite like this that springs to mind is when Benny Goodman made a record in the mid 1970s with George Benson on guitar (oddly with Ron Carter on bass)- there is a live session from the mid sixties too where Herbie Hancock sat in with Goodman.

Does anyone else have any examples which do or don't work?


Cheers

Ian

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

I've been playing an unusual Paul Bley live recording from the late 1980s which features a bizarre line up of John Abercrombie, Barry Altschul and bassist Red Mitchell almost sounding like a ringer. The repertoire is largely a set of standards apart from a Bley original and a breakneck version of Ornette's "When will the blues leave." You don't tend to get so many of the ad hoc records being released these day s and I think most fans seeing a record with "Lover man", "My foolish heart", etc on it might be disinclined towards records with over familiar tunes on. I find this a massive turn off with records myself and there are times when you get bored with the same melodies or over-familiar chord changes.

I was a bit disappointed with this CD to begin with but I have warmed to it. It is quite unusual as I have never heard Paul Bley in quite a mainstream context as this. I am a massive fan of Abercrombie and I find it intriguing to hear him outside of an ECM studio context. The music is much less rarefied than you expect either from Bley or ECM and Altschul's drumming if often straight down the middle. The most unusual aspect of the disc is Mitchell's bass playing. When I was first discovering jazz Mitchell was one of those musicians I always dreaded hearing on Humphrey Lyttelton and have never really got over my prejudice of his playing. Initially it was the fact that he sounded too tame and quiet for my tastes at the time yet listening again he baffles me for more technical reasons. On his first solo he plays an R n'B cliché which I find incredible and can only be accounted for him going in to auto-pilot on the live recording. His sound is bizarre and I believe this is due to his unique tuning of his instrument. His sound is somewhere between the rubbery one produced by the likes of Ron Carter back in the 1970s and Eberhard Weber. In the case of the former, that sound just screams out 1970's Aebersold play-a-long." (If you have the Horace Silver volume, you will know what I mean.) In his solos, the bass purrs and there is a rather unnatural effect of the notes not decaying as quickly as you would have anticipated. It is strange hearing this sound as late as 1988.

Despite these technical issues, I suppose this record turns one of the things I love about jazz on its head. This is the appearance of a more modern voice in a group of musicians such as you find with Christian / Goodman, Young / Basie, Dolphy / Oliver Nelson, etc. You can imagine Paul Bley being associated with the drummer and maybe understand that there would have been an appeal for him to join forces with John Abercrombie who sounds more orthodox away from Eicher's production values. By contrast, Red Mitchell seems a weird choice as a bassist and someone who was not only from an earlier generation of players but a conservative one at that. Looking at the personnel on this record, Red Mitchell would appear to be too "old fashioned." (The rest of the boxset includes players like Tony Oxley which only exaggerates the impression.)

It made me think of the Kirk Knuffke record of a few years back where he put together a trio with guests such as avant gardist Daniel Carter but underpinned everything with the drumming of Bill Goodwin. In this context, Goodwin just seemed to relish the experience and, being cast in an unlikely scenario, he is the best thing about the record to be honest. By contrast, Mitchell seems like a safe pair on hands. Listening to the record this evening I am far more enthused by this record than on first listen yet the bass playing alone makes this sound like a mainstream date. If anything, it is an intriguing listen because it is so odd.

It would be fun to run another thread or perhaps a JRR series of older musicians working in a context with a younger generation of musicians whose music is generally far removed from the former? The obvious example is the Monk / Pee-Wee Russell record but you can understand why they would have made such a good pairing. The only really "odd" situation quite like this that springs to mind is when Benny Goodman made a record in the mid 1970s with George Benson on guitar (oddly with Ron Carter on bass)- there is a live session from the mid sixties too where Herbie Hancock sat in with Goodman.

Does anyone else have any examples which do or don't work?


Cheers

Ian

I find bass players through the 1970s/80s (and I am generalising), even premier ones, wrecked entire dates with that rubber & glissando amplified "hear me!" sound. It is just bloody horrible, it stands out in even good company, it destroys any naturalness and underlying swing. Surely to God they could hear the difference, these were experienced players who prided themselves on their sound, depth & tone? The "wood"? Bob Magnasson (sp) on those Art Pepper concert dates, even Leroy Vinegar on the later Sonny Criss records, Carter ubiquitous. Carter was interviewed by Alyn a long time ago and one of his real gripes was that you had no control over the bass sound after you left the studio, the producer could do what the fk he liked, so there may be a defence....but not much.

On Red Mitchell in his prime, wonderful, the Hampton Hawes sides, Mulligan etc? But he got "rubber disease" like the rest of the lame fekers. Christ, even NHOP "popping" away. I am so angry I will play some LOUD Paul Chambers in a darkened room. And then there's the 70s drum sound...Frank Butler, once great, playing on snares with no "body" or carry, that bloody "ping pong", so go get a drum machine or Phil Collins...

BN

[Stanfordian]

‘Preachin'’
Gene Ammons with Clarence 'Sleepy' Anderson, Sylvester Hickman & Dorral Anderson
Prestige (1962)

A stunning jazz album using hymn tunes!

[Jazzrook]

Jimmy Giuffre & Pee Wee Russell:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6YSnirbxTI

JR

[Serial_Apologist]

I find bass players through the 1970s/80s (and I am generalising), even premier ones, wrecked entire dates with that rubber & glissando amplified "hear me!" sound. It is just bloody horrible, it stands out in even good company, it destroys any naturalness and underlying swing. Surely to God they could hear the difference, these were experienced players who prided themselves on their sound, depth & tone? The "wood"? Bob Magnasson (sp) on those Art Pepper concert dates, even Leroy Vinegar on the later Sonny Criss records, Carter ubiquitous. Carter was interviewed by Alyn a long time ago and one of his real gripes was that you had no control over the bass sound after you left the studio, the producer could do what the fk he liked, so there may be a defence....but not much.

On Red Mitchell in his prime, wonderful, the Hampton Hawes sides, Mulligan etc? But he got "rubber disease" like the rest of the lame fekers. Christ, even NHOP "popping" away. I am so angry I will play some LOUD Paul Chambers in a darkened room. And then there's the 70s drum sound...Frank Butler, once great, playing on snares with no "body" or carry, that bloody "ping pong", so go get a drum machine or Phil Collins...

BN

Is it the bass playing technique you find upsetting, or the way it's been recorded? There are ways to extend the sounding of a tone, seemingly by holding down and rubbing on the string of the plucked note. Personally I actually like it when bassists play glissandos: the late pianist Richard Madgewick worked with Ron Matthewson and told me that the way Ron achieved rapid flexible mobility, often using glissandos, was by having strings relatively loose. This also produced the "rubbery", almost bass guitar tone that typified Ron's playing - which Richard also didn't like!

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

It's both, but the over use of glissando plus "through the board" makes everything worse. You can hear it even on later Art Blakey dates which required no particular virtuosity. That rubbery weightless plunk behind everything. What is the point of the acoustic double bass if it's reduced to a pack of elastic bands from Tesco? Proof is you rarely hear that sound now. It was an era thing, akin to pop singers praising the SS as "very stylish". And almost as appalling.

[Ian Thumwood]

Jimmy Giuffre & Pee Wee Russell:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6YSnirbxTI

JR

I wasn't aware of this and think it is terrific. It is a shame that the sound quality is not better but the pairing of these two musicians is probably not too surprising given Guiffre's exceptional "Traditionalism revisited" album. You can see (hear) why there would be a connection, especially if you read the liner notes to that record.

I would be fascinated to hear something that was incongruous - perhaps along the lines of Zutty singleton playing with Charlie Parker.

[Ian Thumwood]

It's both, but the over use of glissando plus "through the board" makes everything worse. You can hear it even on later Art Blakey dates which required no particular virtuosity. That rubbery weightless plunk behind everything. What is the point of the acoustic double bass if it's reduced to a pack of elastic bands from Tesco? Proof is you rarely hear that sound now. It was an era thing, akin to pop singers praising the SS as "very stylish". And almost as appalling.

I must admit that it is the bass sound which puts me off so much 1970's jazz. I find it a real lottery picking up records from this era and probably feel you are safest either buying more blatant "fusion" records where a bass guitar is used or the more outside stuff where the acoustic sound is retained. I have been listening to Collin Walcott's "Cloud Dance" this week which was made in that decade and the whole recording hinges on a more naturalistic sound. Bit even ECM is guilty of over-engineering stuff. The "tastes" of recording engineers evolves and changes over time so that stuff from the 1980s might be engineered differently had the musicians recorded in 2019.

What is fascinating is listening to pop record production since the 1980s. There is a bass guitar solo on Paul Young's "Wherever I lay my hat" which is fascinating as is totally dominates the record. When you listen to recent stuff, the music is all about the production. There is actually very little "music" going on underneath the layering of the different sounds. The production values are incredible but are totally out of proportion with the merits of the music. It probably sounds "enhanced" or "professional" to the producer but it kills the music. When you think about it, there are all sorts of elements in music production which date it. The most obvious one other than 70's basses are 1950's pianos which somehow get relegated to the background. (The worst example is Jimmy Jones on the Clifford Brown / Sarah Vaughan record which is very unnatural and makes this a hard listen for me.) Conversely, the one element of engineering skill that seems lost is the ability to capture a big band. Some of the labels like Capital seemed to achieve an amazing job even back in the 1950s. Quite why the 1970's bass sound became so dominant is a mystery although there are some interesting insights in to production values in the 1970s within the excellent Jimmy Heath book where he mentions a push to make jazz groups sound more like pop groups.

[Serial_Apologist]

I wasn't aware of this and think it is terrific. It is a shame that the sound quality is not better but the pairing of these two musicians is probably not too surprising given Guiffre's exceptional "Traditionalism revisited" album. You can see (hear) why there would be a connection, especially if you read the liner notes to that record.

I would be fascinated to hear something that was incongruous - perhaps along the lines of Zutty singleton playing with Charlie Parker.

Ian, possibly one area where we might disagree is that I hear a big leap forward from those 1945 recordings of Parker backed by Teddy Wilson, and the subsequent sessions with pianists such as Al Haig we might think of as boppers by virtue of the comping left hand replacing the foregoing stride in-fills which tended to make bass players surplus to requirements. It was you who rightly pointed to the Basie rhythm section as prophetic in that sense, though with Freddie Green strumming out the harmony on every beat. There's an interesting early Ronnie Scott recording from 1947 where the same format was used.

[Jazzrook]

'Ornette On Tenor' from 1961 with Don Cherry, Jimmy Garrison & Ed Blackwell:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3GAg0J-874

JR

[BLUESNIK'S REVOX]

http://youtu.be/BoSpkQz4jXo

Bill Evans and Monika Zetterlund, live, ""Waltz for Debby".

Every so often I watch this to remind myself how glorious it is. He and HER, especially her. She was really something. BN.